Liberty's DMIN

[PrTeacher10]

How does Liberty's DMIN compare to the likes of Southern's or a reputable SBC seminary?

Rigor? Prestige? so on?

 

[preachinjesus]

I consider it equivalent to a masters level add on to an MDiv.

Its not bad but its not the best. If you've got the bandwidth and time go somewhere good. Gordon-Conwell, SBTS, Beeson, TEDS. DMins are becoming a required degree for upper level staff in ministry, especially pastors of churches.

There are some DMins that are worth it, and others that are what I described above. Just saying. (As a qualifier: I went to Liberty in my undergraduate...and I have a PhD so I don't think much of DMins.)

 

[Rhetorician]

I consider it equivalent to a masters level add on to an MDiv.

Its not bad but its not the best. If you've got the bandwidth and time go somewhere good. Gordon-Conwell, SBTS, Beeson, TEDS. DMins are becoming a required degree for upper level staff in ministry, especially pastors of churches.

There are some DMins that are worth it, and others that are what I described above. Just saying. (As a qualifier: I went to Liberty in my undergraduate...and I have a PhD so I don't think much of DMins.)

Dear PJ,

I am glad to know how you really feel about me!!?? LOL!! :laugh:

"That is all!" :wavey:

 

[mandym]

DMins are becoming a required degree for upper level staff in ministry, especially pastors of churches.

Only to hyper-academics. There may some some churches that require it but they are few and far between as they should be. It is not a growing trend. Nor should it be.

 

[preachinjesus]

I am glad to know how you really feel about me!!?? LOL!! :laugh:

You did hopefully note that I said Southern has a very good DMin program. I've looked at a number of these DMin programs out there and interacted with their graduates. I'm just not impressed that they (not the ones I mentioned) are any better than a tack on for the MDiv. The programs (historically) originated as ways to give pastors a "Dr" desgination and have ended up being clergy advancement degrees. The degree design is lacking for many of these like Liberty, Luther Rice, etc etc.

Why not just get an MBA and use that as your organizational degree? I think many pastors would be benefitted by that.

My position in DMins is pretty squared away and informed by what I've seen. Most pastors would be better off with an MBA or a PhD in theology. I think DMins are cheapening the ministry when guys go to poor schools to get a "give me" degree.

 

[Rhetorician]

You did hopefully note that I said Southern has a very good DMin program. I've looked at a number of these DMin programs out there and interacted with their graduates. I'm just not impressed that they (not the ones I mentioned) are any better than a tack on for the MDiv.

Dear PJ,

But I did not get my DMin at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I got my DMin at The University of the South's School of Theology at Sewanee. Which is the ultra-liberal Episcopalian-Anglican seminary. So there!! LOL!!! again! :tongue3:

"That is all!" :wavey: :thumbsup:

 

[Rhetorician]

Rhetorician Follow Up

Dear PJ,

I was once told by my OT prof Dr. Marvin Tate at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary when I was taking a "J Term" one cold winter in the early 1990s; "it seems to me that the degree one gets does not matter but what one does with it that matters."

I have always held on to that old bromide. It seems that the DMin has not hurt me. I am beginning my 15th year in the classroom teaching on the college level and have been blessed to publish. Now I will admit that I may have been passed over for job opportunities but we know our Lord is Sovereign over all. AMEN?!

"That is all!" :thumbsup:

 

[preachinjesus]

Nevertheless, the OP asked about Liberty's DMin. I've shared what I think of it...and it ain't good.

 

[Havensdad]

How does Liberty's DMIN compare to the likes of Southern's or a reputable SBC seminary?

Rigor? Prestige? so on?

As I am planning on doing at least a D.min eventually, I have researched this quite a bit. Liberty's DMin program is as good as most of the "big six" SBC seminaries. I would say that it is equivalent to Southwestern or New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, etc. It is a reputable, valuable, and challenging degree.

That said, it does NOT add up to Southern's much more rigorous Doctor of Ministry in Expository Preaching, for instance, in rigor, OR reputation.

However, for the average Pastor, I would say it is a good choice...

 

[Rhetorician]

HD's DMin Rigorous Inference

for the average Pastor

Dear Colleague HD,

I am more than sure that you are not implying or would want me to infer that "the average pastor" should not seek the best, most rigorous DMin degree possible? Am I correct? Can you shed some further light please?

Now I am also sure we have both been witness to the fact of the discussions on this media that many, but not all, seek the easiest, fastest, and cheapest shortcut to education possible. And some just for the fact that they can be called "Doctor."

And if I have caused any confusion or irritation on any level for anyone it is not intentional. I am only trying to ascertain new information for my own use. I may come across as an academic or educational snob but that is also not my intent, OK?

Thank you very much.

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Havensdad]

Dear Colleague HD,

I am more than sure that you are not implying or would want me to infer that "the average pastor" should not seek the best, most rigorous DMin degree possible? Am I correct? Can you shed some further light please?

I am saying exactly what you say I am "implying" ( I thought I said it pretty plainly...): that every pastor should NOT seek the hardest degree program out there. In fact, to think otherwise is INSANE.

How on earth are you going to suggest that every pastor try to attain to the hardest, most difficult academic program? Did God call only the mental elite into His service? There are many pastors, quite frankly, that cannot handle a doctoral degree from somewhere like Southern or Gordon-Conwell.

God gifts all men differently. In the same way, degree programs from different schools have different levels of rigor; that is why they carry differing levels of prestige. Each person should examine the gifts which God has given him, in association with ministerial colleagues, his wife, and his own church family, and choose a degree program that will be challenging for that individual. Liberty has an academically rigorous D. Min. program, that is suitable for most pastors. For those who are especially gifted in their particular area of study, a school such as Southern or Gordon-Conwell would be more challenging and satisfying.

This is just a no-brainer. Not sure how anyone could even argue with it...

 

[Martin]

I agree with HD on this one. In fact, I think I will go one-step further and argue that the majority of pastors do not even need to pursue any doctoral program (DMin or PhD). The day-to-day work of the average pastor in America simply does not require a doctoral level degree. A good Bible college degree or basic seminary degree (MA or MDiv) will serve the needs of most pastors.

The PhD should be reserved for academics (college/seminary professors, scholars, etc). DMin is useful for men (and women) who are teaching at the Bible college or seminary level or who are in leadership roles in a denomination or convention (and those might be better served by an MBA).

Like I said, the average pastor simply does not need the DMin or the PhD. Their job (study, preaching, shepherding, etc) does not require it and their pay will not reflect it. I have become a strong advocate of the idea of only earning the degrees you need.

On the issue of Liberty University's DMin program: I have no personal experience. However I would say that, given the current way of doing things, it is as good as most pastors need. I would argue the same thing for DMins from schools such as Luther Rice, Temple, Southeastern, etc.

 

[Havensdad]

I agree with HD on this one. In fact, I think I will go one-step further and argue that the majority of pastors do not even need to pursue any doctoral program (DMin or PhD). The day-to-day work of the average pastor in America simply does not require a doctoral level degree. A good Bible college degree or basic seminary degree (MA or MDiv) will serve the needs of most pastors.

The PhD should be reserved for academics (college/seminary professors, scholars, etc). DMin is useful for men (and women) who are teaching at the Bible college or seminary level or who are in leadership roles in a denomination or convention (and those might be better served by an MBA).

Like I said, the average pastor simply does not need the DMin or the PhD. Their job (study, preaching, shepherding, etc) does not require it and their pay will not reflect it. I have become a strong advocate of the idea of only earning the degrees you need.

On the issue of Liberty University's DMin program: I have no personal experience. However I would say that, given the current way of doing things, it is as good as most pastors need. I would argue the same thing for DMins from schools such as Luther Rice, Temple, Southeastern, etc.

One qualification. I believe the D.Min. IS useful for the average pastor, who wants to hone his skills. Necessary? No. Useful? Absolutely. Particularly with pastors who are over large churches and other ministers...

 

[Ryan.Samples]

DMin is useful for men (and women) who are teaching at the Bible college or seminary level

I once thought the same thing until I spoke to a prof who informed me that when he served as dean of a seminary, he refused to hire anyone with a DMin as his highest degree.

My experience at Liberty has included faculty with a DMin and I learned quite a bit, though they were limited to teaching pastoral ministry, etc courses. Again, that has been my experience, though I suspect it proves steady across the board. That practice seemed to make sense to me until this former dean pointed out that the DMin isn't a terminal degree (news to me at the time!) and that accrediting agencies look less favorably on schools who have too many faculty members without terminal degrees. I wouldn't know anything about that. Regardless of all that, this argument was the kicker: "anything I want from a DMin, I can get from a guy with a PhD, and then some."

God can and does use people will all kinds of backgrounds, educational and otherwise, so it all boils down to the same question: what are you trying to do with the degree? Is rigor actually relevant? If so, why not tackle the PhD? What is a DMin going to give you that you don't already have? Furthermore, what is a PhD from any school going to give you that you can't learn or achieve sans the degree (and perhaps the corresponding debt)?

Just thought I'd chime in when nobody had asked me to do so! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[TCGreek]

Words of wisdom, especially on "corresponding debt."