Featured A.W. Pink - The Sovereignty of God, updated version!

it appears to me that some folks really dont understand the state of fallen man since the fall in garden of eden--therefore they dont see that men in fallen state as the bible states are enemies of god--they hate the truth--and those who dont have the ears to hear continue to fight and argue against the truth----ohhhh that they may be granted hears to hear!!!

 

I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite sure that if God had not chosen me I should never have chosen him; and I am sure he chose me before I was born, or else he never would have chosen me afterwards; and he must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why he should have looked upon me with special love.

- C. Spurgeon

 

Of course I do and no matter how hard you try to run from your doctrine, it remains Calvinism to the core. You say we are given faith, so your doctrine is we are saved by grace and given faith, just as I said. Scripture reads we are saved by grace through faith, our faith provides access to the grace in which we stand.

Word games will not cut it, Sir. You did not say you agreed with me, you presented the Calvinist fiction. Next you say we are not chosen apart from faith but what you probably mean is "simultaneously to being chosen we are given faith" therefore more shuck and jive and misdirection to hide your unofficial doctrine.

Next you say we are chosen "from" the foundation of the world." No, Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen "before" the foundation of the world. So again you are simply using "from" to mean "before" i.e. word games.

First, I provided the reference and addressed the same statement of being chosen by the sanctifying work of the Spirit. And this method of election, through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth is in accordance with God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge.

No, from the beginning refers to a period that starts at the beginning of something, i.e. say the creation week or the start of the New Covenant, and extends to the end of the age, i.e. during the lifetime of all men or all men since the inauguration of the New Covenant. So it is completely consistent with all my statements. I have been presenting the same view of salvation for years, you claim that I present different views is the result of your misunderstanding.

For example say someone says, I have lived in this house from the beginning. Does this include before the house was built? Yes according to Calvinism, but no according to the meaning of the statement. Now how long has this person lived in the house? It is open ended, in that it starts with the beginning and extends to the day the statement is made, otherwise it would read, I had lived in the house from the beginning.

Apo means out of and separated from something, so from the beginning cannot include before there was a beginning for there would be nothing to come out of and separate from.

Words have meaning.

 

It is one thing to make claims and yet another to support a view from scripture. Rather than address the lack of understanding of others, why not demonstrate your understanding of scripture?

1) Does the Bible state we start out as enemies of God because of the fall? Are you again referring to Romans 8:7? Does it not say that with our minds set on flesh, then we are enemies of God?

Now what the mistaken view of Calvinism does is claim that a person who is not yet indwelt is "in the flesh" and cannot set his or her mind on anything but the flesh. But is the assumption valid? Nope. Matthew 13:1-26 tells us of men who have not yet been indwelt, yet receive the gospel with joy. Therefore scripture teaches that men in the flesh, without the indwelt Spirit, can set their minds on the gospel and receive it with joy. Therefore, at that time they cannot be "enemies" of God. Therefore the claim by Calvinism is shown to be false.

 

"Receiving (the Word) with joy" ≠ "salvation". That much is plain from the context of Matthew 13. Verse 20 details a person who has made an emotional, superficial decision to trust the "Gospel" of easy-believism. That which is truly born of God cannot fall away.

Matthew 13:20- As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Matthew Henry says of this verse:

Hypocrites, like the stony ground, often get the start of true Christians in the shows of profession. Many are glad to hear a good sermon, who do not profit by it. They are told of free salvation, of the believer's privileges, and the happiness of heaven; and, without any change of heart, without any abiding conviction of their own depravity, their need of a Saviour, or the excellence of holiness, they soon profess an unwarranted assurance. But when some heavy trial threatens them, or some sinful advantage may be had, they give up or disguise their profession, or turn to some easier system.

John Gill says:

But he that receiveth the seed into stony places
Such a hearer, who is like to the stony ground on which the seed fell, is one that is not an accidental hearer of the word, as the former, but a settled constant hearer of it; and not one that is careless and negligent, but diligent and attentive, and has some understanding of what he hears;


the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth
it:
he is one that not only constantly attends upon it, but he receives it; he gives an assent to it, he believes in it historically, makes a profession of his faith in it, and holds it for a while, being under some convictions of the truth of it: and having some speculative notions of it, and light in his understanding and judgment in it, he has some flashes of natural affection for it, and delivers some outward expressions of pleasure and delight in it, like Herod, and the hearers of John the Baptist; but has no heart work, and so is like to the rock in stony ground; the natural hardness of his heart continues, it remains unbroken by the word, without any true sense of sin, and repentance for it, and destitute of spiritual life, and of true faith, love, and joy: hence, as his profession is taken up in haste, immediately, upon a flash of affection, and a little head knowledge, it does not last long, nor prove honourable.

 

Even you are adding the bolded statement to the actual words of the verse...we all do that...yours are not incorrect, but leave out the ultimate origin of faith.

No hiding, Actually what I mean is we were chosen a long time ago, but we are given faith at the moment of salvation.

You got me, I misremembered that verse... sorry.

 

ONLY the fourth class of peop[le actually were saved by God!

 

Why do you continue to make false charges insulting me over and over. Did I put that sentence in Quotes? nope. Have you read Romans 5:2? "through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Now several other translations read "have access" or "gained access" or "obtained access" rather than the NASB's introduction.

Yes I know what you mean, we are saved through faith but we are saved and given faith. Not what it says.

 

On and on the assault on the truth continues. Total Spiritual Inability teaches none of the four kinds of soils would seek God and receive the gospel with joy. Three of the four soils do. Therefore the "T" of the tulip is unbiblical, a mistaken view of scripture. The assertion that the fall resulted in all men being hostile to God at all times is fiction, as demonstrated by Matthew 13:1-26.

 

in all these posts that have been made about faith---we have not brought in the drawing of the Father as in John.without the father drawing to the son--no man shall come to him--and those that the father draws,he(Jesus) will raise up at the last day.the Conviction of the Holy Spirit is what brings men to their faces before the Master's feet--showing them their Sin( notice its singular)showing them of the comming judgement--showing them of the Lamb of God which took away their sins--these things must be or their is no salvation--it is true salvation is a gift and its through faith but the faith that salvation is through comes from God--this easy in religion that has swept america by storm so waters down the Gospel and makes it of NO effect in hearts of men---just ask jesus in your heartand so on--thing is jesus doesnt want to come in to your evil and wicked heart as 1 of your many gods--he wants to give you a new heart which he is the ONLY LORD of your life--and also Repentence has been done away with in this wicked generation--the apostles preached it and Jesus himself said unless you REPENT you shall perish likewise as the others--so consider this short list of workings i have mentioned--for they are all of the process leading to Salvation being imparted.

 

I don't know why you think I'm insulting you...I was simply pointing out that we all paraphrase scripture, and like you pointed out, draw ideas from other scriptures, even at times adding our own words to try to state succinctly what we believe is the truth. I do that, you do that...Note that I said you were not incorrect to do so.

I was pointing it out because you seemed to disagree that I had done a similar thing by saying faith is a gift. (Idea taken from Phil 1:29, Rom. 12:3)

 

You continue to misrepresent the Scriptures. I notice you did not bother to reply to my post #65 above.

 

Reply to Evasion

In all these posts, Calvinists have not addressed that unsaved men seek God some of the time, as taught in Matthew 13:1-26. So they change the subject. No one can come to Me unless drawn by the Father is what John 6:44 says (NASB).

Next we get yet another rewrite of scripture to pour Calvinism into the text. Here is what the Calvinist wrote: "- -and those that the father draws, he(Jesus) will raise up at the last day."

Thus according to Calvinism, everyone the Father draws will be raised up. But is this how the text actually reads? Nope

What the verse actually says is "No one can come to Me, unless the Father draws him, and I will raise him on the last day." Who will Jesus raise up, all those drawn or all those who "come to Me?" Those that come to Jesus is what the verse says.

What Calvinism does over and over is take a verse that can be read, in isolation, two ways and claim that the out of context way is the meaning.

Notice Calvinism claims the opposite of what is said. No one can come unless drawn, becomes everyone drawn comes. Too clever by half.

Lets consider the next verse, you know John 6:45, which says everyone who has "heard" and "learned" from the Father comes to Me. What do we hear from the Father? The gospel of Christ. How did we hear it? Through the inspired word. Thus the work of conviction was accomplished by who? The Holy Spirit who inspired the gospel of Christ. Now how did they "learn?" They, fallen men of flesh, must be able to understand the milk of the gospel, just as Paul teaches.
But how do we know they actually learned? God, who searches their hearts credits their worthless faith as righteousness. And these are the ones - those that learned from the Father - that come to Jesus, i.e. God puts them in Christ spiritually.

 

Reply the Mexdeaf

No one claimed the second soil was saved, so a non-sequitur. What was claimed and evaded was the second soil sought God and trusted in Christ, therefore had limited spiritual ability, enough to understand the milk of the gospel. Somehow, you missed the point. This does not prove the second soil was saved, but it proves some unregenerates can seek God and trust in Christ at least some of the time. Thus the passage, Matthew 13:1-26 demonstrates Total Spiritual Inability is a mistaken doctrine.

 

I did not quote scripture. Pink put 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in "quotation marks" but when he cut off the verse he did not put the ellipsis (...) to indicate an edit. I did not do that.

Next, what exactly did I say referring to you 12 strings? I said you understand Ephesians 2:8 to mean we are saved by grace and given faith, but that is not how that verse reads.

The "gift of faith" is a mistaken view of scripture and I could plow through every verse cited by Calvinism. So lets just stick with the two you added to the mix. In Romans 12:3 it says we are given a "measure of faith" (NASB) but what this refers to is not pre-salvation faith in Christ, but our area of ministry within the body of Christ. So if you got the idea of the gift of faith from this verse, it was based on shoddy exegesis.

Next we have Philippians 1:29 which says we have been granted ... to believe in Him. Again the idea here is we have not been prevented from believing, i.e. God did not harden our hearts. You turn God allowing us to believe into God compelling us to believe. Again not what it says.

So not only did God not harden our hearts, He brought us the gospel of Christ, and credited our faith in that gospel as righteousness. Thus "it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe (to be believing) in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

There is no actual support for the "gift of faith" taught by the mistaken view of Calvinism anywhere in scripture.

 

I understand your point here...thanks. I actually had not read all of the Pink quotes on here yet, so I wasn't really referencing him at all.

Good day,
-Andy

 

This makes no sense- you said: "No one claimed the second soil was saved" then you say, "it proves some unregenerates can seek God and trust in Christ at least some of the time."

What I am trying to tell you is that "trusting Christ" means NOTHING without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. THAT is "Total Spiritual Inability" (by which I assume you mean "Total Depravity"). To argue against Total Depravity is to argue against a whole host of Scriptures-

Mark 7:21-23
Jeremiah 17:9
Romans 6:20
Romans 3:10-12
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:3,15

You cannot just pluck one Scripture out of meaning and context and place it in opposition to many others which teach exactly the opposite.

 

Everything we have is a gift. Every breath that we take is a gift. Otherwise we have no need of God.

 

exactly ! we need Him, but He does not "need" us!

 

I love it when a Calvinist pretends the spiritually dead folks can seek God and trust in Christ, but just not effectively. Trusting in Christ means nothing unless God credits it as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5/24. Regeneration occurs after a person is placed spiritually in Christ. We are made alive together with Christ, not before we are united with Christ.

Next, the totally false charge that I "pluck one scripture out of meaning and context and place it in opposition to many others which teach exactly the opposite." No, that is what Calvinism does.

Lets take them one at a time:

Mark 7:21-23 says out of our evil heart proceeds every sort of evil. But it does not say we cannot at times seek God or trust in Christ. Thus, a citation plucked out of scripture having nothing to say on the issue. Strike one.

Jeremiah 17:9 says our heart is wicked and deceitful. But it does not say we cannot at times seek God or trust in Christ. Thus a citation plucked out of scripture having nothing to say on the issue. Strike two.

Romans 6:20 says before we were saved, we were slaves to sin and free of righteousness. But it does not say we cannot at times seek God or trust in Christ. All it says in this regard is our efforts to seek God and trust in Christ are not righteous. True, that is why God credits our filthy rag faith as righteousness. Strike three.

Romans 3:11 says no one seeks God. But it does not say whether no one seeks God all the time or at any time. Thus Calvinism reads into the text, "at any time." Which is not what the passage says contextually. Since no one seeks God, we all sin, for we are not seeking God when we sin. That is the argument Paul is making. Strike four. (Must have been a bad call.)

Yet again natural men (men of flesh) do not accept the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14). But does this say all things or some things? Calvinism reads into the text "all things of the Spirit of God" but if you continue to read the passage to 3:3 you see men of flesh can understand the milk but not solid food. Strike five. (You get the idea, none of the verses cited actually support the premise, when contextually understood.)

Ephesians 2:3-15 is completely off topic, having to do with the mystery that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Strike six.

Total Spiritual inability has no actual support in scripture as demonstrated by these 6 efforts to pluck support out of scriptural context. Whereas, verse after verse does demonstrate fallen men of flesh can seek God and trust in Christ, i.e. the second soil. Now God did not credit that effort as righteousness for the reason given, i.e. superficial faith with no root, firm commitment.

There there is Romans 9:30-33 where men seek God through works or through faith. The rich young ruler. I could go on and on.