Featured What is a Calvanist?

Excellent advise!!

Sister Sandie....Oldtimer's advise is EXCELLENT! I will offer you a bit of an apology...I did know when I made my last post that it would open a real can of worms and that is true...I apologize for taking the lid all the way off the can. The whole Calvinism debate is very polarized and confusing which is the LAST THING you need right now. In fact, I'm not at all sure anybody needs it .....EVER. This is one of those things that divides churches just like what you described and that is terrible. The only reason I stepped into this is because I know you are struggling to find your place and your peace in the Lord's work right now and when you asked the original question I knew the Calvinists in here would pounce on you like a wolf on a fresh piece of meat. They almost always do that so I wanted to make sure that you had some information from the "other side" that was both balanced and thorough. Bro.Cloud's work on the subject is very thorough. The other thing I have noticed about the "C's" is that they usually are very proud of their "supposed" superior spirituality over the "brethren" that they see as "unenlightened". I can tell you this....most, if not all of Calvin's doctrines will not stand on their own. They have to read things into the text of scripture to make them teach what they teach. For instance, the phrase "the world" in John 3:16 means 'only those God elected to be saved' to them. That is not an honest interpretation of scripture. I honestly believe that Oldtimer got it right when he said, for now, "Keep it simple". Get in church and get THAT settled and then focus on becoming stable in your faith and your personal walk with the Lord. As far as this "debate"....just pray that God will protect you from deception and ask Him to give you discernment and the wisdom to tell truth from error. If you ask Him for that He will give it to you. Make it your desire to know and do ONLY those things which bring honor and glory to His Name. He alone is worthy of our praise and devotion. Bless you sister. In short, be a Bible Believer and beware of the doctrines of men. Thank you for your good advise to her Oldtimer.

bro.Greg:type:

 

Oldtimer's advice was good, and I am determined not to get into any more arguments about Calvinism on this thread.

 

Gregory Perry Sr

Misled...by reading from you or AIC?

Do you believe someone who is not predestined by God ...will go there?
Do you believe those God predestined to be conformed to Jesus will not be conformed to Jesus ?
Can it be said that God predestines something that is not really predestined at all???

Well ...so far your post does not look too enlightened:thumbsup:

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Again... the bible teaches the elect of God do go to heaven and are saved, so of course calvinism teaches that very thing.

Can you show one verse that says a non elect person goes into heaven, or gets saved???

The non elect unbeliever will go to hell justly for their sins.They have a chance to repent everyday as they hear the gospel.They do not want to!

The scripture refutes your idea...we just believe it.

On the contrary...man always chooses to resist God, until God saves Him.

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You teach falsely here.The Love of God is in Christ, not apart from him...to every believing one:thumbsup:

Your simple understanding is in error as is your caps..whosoever is not in the text; here it is-

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during

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and yet he did not say what you claim

, and so are you.The teaching is scriptural..it does not have to do with Calvin, or what you think might have took place.

The original post asked what is calvinism....you do not know what it is...so why not let those who know what it is explain it:thumbsup:

 

And There You Have It

Dear Bro.Iconoclast, Your post illustrates two things to me:

#1. Your (Calvins) theology CREATES rather than solves supposed contradictions in scripture....and

#2. Your post is just one more reason why I will NEVER use any other english language version other than the King James Bible. (I don't know where you got the one above from but it is a simply terrible butchering of one of the most (if not THE most) beautiful passages of scripture in the entire Bible.

Brother..I will not argue with you and I do believe as Romans 12:18 says "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."...but I can see we have almost no common ground and it would probably be wise for us to NOT engage in further conversation. At least not about this subject! As for Calvin and his doctrines I have always believed them to be riddled with errors even though they do contain some mixture of truth.(That's how people get sucked into them) However, I will pray for you as a brother should. Please do not confuse this dear sister any further. I think we BOTH ought to back off lest we be guilty of that. She is simply trying to get herself solidly grounded in a decent church fellowship where she can grow. None of this is helping her do that. By her own testimony she has seen the devastating effects of a church being torn apart by this kind of stuff. God is not the author of confusion...EVER! Sister Sandie...I am praying for you. Be careful about what you partake of in here or anywhere else. Pray for discernment. God will NOT EVER let you down.:tear:

Blessings In Jesus Name,
Bro.Greg

 

Don't forget that the KJV was translated by Anglicans who believed in the 39 articles. BTW, which revision of the KJV do you hold to and why did the translators say in the preface that their translation was not inspired and that in time a better translation would probably happen?

And Greg, since you admit you are confusing her, which we do not believe about our comments, it would be good if you went back and deleted your posts.

And as I never quote Calvin, only scripture and do not refer to myself as a Calvinist, please stop calling me one. I don't believe anyone else here has quoted him either.

 

Youngs Literal Translation is not a butchering of the passage.It is what the passage actually says.Anyone interested in the truth of scripture should take note of it.
You and others who do not understand the teaching are the ones who create confusion. No one quotes Calvin here, just the scripture.
Calvinism is biblical teaching...like this:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It is not a matter of arguing, but rather coming to truth. If you have any questions frrl free to ask.

 

Very simply, Calvinism believes that before the foundation of the world, God chose a certain number of people to be saved. These are called the elect. God is going to save these persons no matter what. These persons cannot resist God's grace, God will supernaturally regenerate them and overcome all resistance they have to the gospel. They will irresistibly believe the gospel and be saved.

Those who are not elect, God has determined before the foundation of the world that he will pass them by. God does not regenerate these persons as he did the elect. He leaves them in their spiritual deadness to perish.

Calvinists believe in what is called Total Depravity, but it is better explained as Total Inability. What they mean is that man is born dead in sin, and is utterly unable to understand or believe the gospel. They believe God must regenerate any person before they have the ability to believe the gospel.

Those God has chosen to save he regenerates. Those who God has chosen to pass by he leaves in their unregenerate state to perish.

Calvinists do not believe God desires all men to be saved, but only a select few called the elect. They believe God has no desire or intention to save the non-elect.

 

The bible teaches this...Calvinists believe it.

God will save those elect persons through the means of repentance and faith through the preaching of the gospel

everyone of them resist God's grace, until He works in them

 

Another twisting of what's been said, if I understand, even to a small what's been said in this thread.

I can speak with certaintly for myself. I haven't studied "Calvanism", yet, for a reason. From what I understand she is a layman, just as I am. You may believe that this flood of posts, isn't confusing. Please let me assure you that it IS CONFUSING! This type of study requires a systematic approach along with a prayer for His guidance. Rather than making a relatively simple statement with bullet points, giving a good outline of this position, she got hit with shotgun blasts of information that would take a considerable amount of time for seminary students to digest.

Why was it necessary to bring in a partial quote of the preface of the KJB, because Greg is a supporter? Why not address the verse I originally included in more detail from your point of view? How does dragging in the Anglican church and 39 articles help better define the differences in usage of that verse? How does it help to reduce my confusion on this issue, as I can't speak for the OP, in this regard? Or, was that a veiled attempt to open another attack on the KJB, taking this thread in another direction and away from her question?

So, anyone who doesn't share your viewpoints should delete their posts. Should I delete mine, as I brought up the point that now may not be the time for her to study Calvanism while she's dealing with other issues in her church life?

 

Thank you Winman for simply stating the points of belief. Your list appears to be a good starting point for a layman to begin study of both sides of this highly confrontational issue.

Not all of us are on the same level as those who have studied and debated this for years.

 

Hello OT,
Keep in mind that the Apostle Paul by the Spirit wrote to average, regular believers when he wrote his letters...like Ephesians:

notice Peter said it was the unlearned and unstable who twist Pauls writings:

 

Well, they will find fault with something I said there, and say I misrepresented them.

For instance, they might say that Total Inability does not mean a person is unable to understand the gospel, the gospel is simple, a child can understand it. But what they mean is that a person is utterly unable to be WILLING to believe the gospel. They believe a man's will is utterly enslaved to his sin nature. Some say there is no such thing as free will, others will say that man has free will, but will always choose his greatest desire, which is to do evil and refuse to believe the gospel.

They say so many things, it is impossible to nail them down. If you accurately represent one Calvinist, another will say you misrepresent him.

 

See, they always find fault.

Icon's statement is a contradiction. They say God's grace is irresistible, but then contradict themselves and say a man can resist it.

But notice he said "until He works in them". If God wasn't working his grace in that person, then they weren't resisting God's grace. But once he works in them, it cannot be resisted.

So, in reality they weren't resisting God's grace at all as he falsely said.

Whenever you read any statement by a Calvinist, ALWAYS look for the contradiction. It is always there, though their statements are very carefully worded so that they are not obvious. They are slick.

 

This statement is not quite true either, because he omits to say that unless God first regenerates that person, they are utterly unable to be willing to repent and believe.

So, the true means that God uses to save a person is supernatural regeneration. Repenting and believing are after products of that regeneration.

 

A lack of understanding on your part,does not equal a contradiction on our part.

 

This creed has nothing to do with what you said before. You said men resist God's grace until he works in them.

If God was not working his grace in them, then they were not resisting God's grace. You cannot resist what is not there.

It is you that is fooled by your own doctrine and are not aware of it.

If I am walking down the street and some big guy tries to push me into traffic, I can and would resist. If he is too big and strong for me, his power becomes irresistible and I am pushed into the street.

But if he is not pushing me, there is nothing to resist.

You don't even see how your own statement is a contradiction. I don't blame you, you have been taught these false arguments. But you have not thought them out and see the error in them.

 

The confession of faith explains how God overcomes the objections of the natural man:
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Men are truth suppressors rom1

 

Look, if God is not working his grace in a man, that man cannot possibly resist it. You cannot resist what is not there.

And anybody who reads Hebrews 6 (and many other scriptures) knows that men can resist God's grace.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holly Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These persons were "enlightened", they have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, they have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, yet they fall away in unbelief.

These people get it. They understand they are sinners going to hell and need to trust Christ. This refutes your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14. They understand this spiritual doctrine. But they resist and fall away in unbelief. They love their sin more than Jesus and choose sin.

God's grace is not irresistible, this is shown in many scriptures. I could show many others, but you will ignore them to hold to your man-made doctrine.

 

Men always resist God:
19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

God's saving grace is not ultimately resisted but is always effectual in the elect.

 

Without the Spirit they cannot welcome truth.You establish it here!
Good verses!