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Friend of Israel?

thomas15

Well-Known Member
George,

Very well said and same here!

But it always comes down to the covenant a-mils and post-mils making up things to try to discredit the dispies.

Kim Riddlebarger, who is a good writer for a-mil theology in his oft quoted book on the subject writes that as a child he was totally captivated by dispie teachers that he heard on the radio or saw on the tube. Then he grew up and, due to his academic activities, dispensationalism lost it's shine so to speak. So one could say he "smarted" himself out of dispensationalism. But in other places he talks about his lineage and how they were all covenant to the core. So it begs the question, why were his reformed parents letting young Kim get all involved in pie in the sky theology? One could surmise that Dr. Riddlebarger is either taking liberties with reality or that his parents were less than totally diligent in their duties.

To go from a pre-mil dispensational theology to a a-mil or post mil or preterist theology, it is necessary to first embrace covenant theology. This is the real debate. Prove that Jehovah made a covenant of grace, works and/or the optional covenant of redemption and dispensationalism falls apart. But be of good cheer George for the Bible speaks not of these two or three covenants!


Wow...The non-dispensationalists in here have gone viral! Going viral is what virus's do:smilewinkgrin:!

Just for the record...I am one dispensationalist that has NEVER read ANY of LaHaye's "Left Behind" books. I don't like mixing truth with fiction. I'm a realist at heart so why would I want to confuse the truth...I just don't see either the value OR the point. I do have some of those books in my library that were given to me by well-meaning friends...but I never read'em.

I prefer good books like THE Good Book!...my trusty old KJV. As for others ...well ...anything by Larkin...and also "Things To Come" by J.Dwight Pentecost and the excellent commentary on Revelation by James W.Knox among others. Skip the fiction...the world has too much of that to offer...give me truth...the kind that the Holy Spirit unveils!

By the way..I'm gonna say one last thing in this post...for anybody to accuse dispensationalists of wanting to assist Jews in returning to their promised homeland JUST SO THEY'LL BE KILLED TO HASTEN THE RETURN OF CHRIST is irresponsible and reprehensible AT THE VERY LEAST. It is despicable and offensive. When the times of tribulation overtake this world AFTER THE CHURCH is taken up (raptured) it won't matter where the Jews ARE (or the Gentiles either) The death and suffering that will overtake the remaining unbelievers in this world will take place on an unprecedented scale. This world has seen some rough stuff but I believe THAT kind of tribulation that has been prophecied is unimaginable. I'm glad the Church won't be here for that. If you don't believe that then I'm sorry for you....truly sorry. If any of us actually got what we were born here deserving we'd all roast in Hell. I have sincere hope that My Lord will spare me of that. Even if I die before the Lord comes...that's OK...death has lost it's sting thanks to Calvary!

Bro.Greg
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
George,

A little off topic but consider this when you are trying to respond to the (mainly) preterist cut and paste crowd on this board. A fascinating area to study with respect to reformed covenant theology as it applies to Baptist is the way in which they deal with the actual act of water baptism.

As you know, one of the things that make us Baptist is the belief in "believers baptism". But, the bulk of covenant theologians are Presbyterian. As such, the big debate among the reformed, starting with Calvin is the answer to the question if baptism is the new sign of the new covenant, do we baptise the children of believers as a sign of the covenant to replace circumcision or do we wait for the believer to be mature enough to digest the historical creeds of the church?

A example of the problem in the form of a question is why did Paul have Timothy circumcised after he was baptised?
 

Gregory Perry Sr.

Active Member
Let Me Clarify

The point is the Christian Zioniism that Premillennial Dispensationalism has morphed into; they believe:

“There are two distinct and parallel covenants in the Bible, one with Israel that is never revoked and the other with the Church that is superseded by the covenant with Israel. The Church is a “mere parenthesis” in God’s plan, and as such it will be removed from history during the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 5:1-11). At that point, Israel, as a nation, will be restored as the primary instrument of God on earth. Christian Zionists claim that Genesis 12:3 (“I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you”) should be interpreted literally and lead to political, economic, moral and spiritual support for the state of Israel and for the Jewish people in general.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4930.htm

The 'hyper' Christian Zionists believe that “what Israel wants God wants, and every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised”. They believe that harnessing the wealth and power of the United States in the service of Israel is crucial to America's survival, i.e. in order to be blessed and not cursed [Gen 12:3].

In short, Premillennial Dispensationalism has for the most part become 'The Israel Cult'. They believe the Church of Christ is temporary, a “mere parenthesis”, and the nation of Israel takes front stage in their theology. The Judaizers at Galatia would be proud.



Are you an anti-Semite? It's JEWS that have been quoted here as saying those things.

I've been saved since 1977 and never in all that time have I ever heard such a bizarre "take" on dispensational teachings or truth. Also, I AM NOT anti-semitic and just to disagree with the misguided statement of a professing Jew with a microphone stuck in his face does NOT make me an anti-semite....how ridiculous. We are to love and pray for the people and nation of Israel....however...Bible truth and common sense should dictate what we say and do remembering all along that even though the Jewish people are God's chosen people of promise, they are still lost sinners in need of their Saviour. God is sovereign and has/will accomplish His plan for the ages using His children be they Jew or Gentile. As a believer I can say that it is exciting to watch His plan unfold before us as prophecied in His word. The nation of Israel AND the New Testament Church of THIS dispensation are both an integral part of God's plan and part of His purpose. I'm just thankful to be saved and in His blessed Light. I just wish I was a more faithful witness for Him as the end approaches. He left us here to be His witnesses. I fail Him everyday and desire to overcome my weaknesses that I can serve Him more faithfully.

To close this let me just say that I love the Jewish people and also the Gentiles. ( I are one:laugh:) We are all one flesh of common descent. Our father is Adam and we are all sinners. God Himself made the only valid distinctions between us (Jew and Gentile) and He could do that because he is our Creator and He has His purpose. We are to evangelize the lost,be they jew or gentile. Saved and lost are the only two people groups that really matter. God WILL use the Jews for certain purposes and tasks both now and in the future in accordance with the promises He established with them long ago. As a dispensationalist and a gentile I am comfortable with that and not in any way jealous of their favored place in His "economy". I have my place too...."which things the angels desire to look into."(1 Peter 1:12) Salvation by grace through faith. (Eph.2:8-9) As saved people of God we all have our place and purpose in the Body of Christ! Hallelujah!!

Bro.Greg
 

Gregory Perry Sr.

Active Member
Thanks...

Brother Greg, I'm just a simple uneducated layman by today's standards. Reading these forums, often have to pull out a dictionary and the KJB to figure out those $10 words tossed out (by some) to impress those of us trying to move from milk to meat.

If any of us actually got what we were born here deserving we'd all roast in Hell.

I have sincere hope that My Lord will spare me of that.

Even if I die before the Lord comes...that's OK...death has lost it's sting thanks to Calvary!

Thank you. Three sentences. They say it all, IMO.

OT...I've always believed that the simple truth is the best truth. Why complicate things by attempting to sound smarter than I really am:laugh:! I'm like yourself and thankful of it. I also have to keep my Bible, a concordance and a good dictionary close when I am on here. I think that is good though because it makes me have to do something I've never been terribly good at...STUDY. That is very helpful to me. I'm also finding that being on these forums makes me have to do something else...pray...OFTEN!:praying::laugh:

Bless You Brother

Bro.Greg:thumbsup:
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.....When the times of tribulation overtake this world AFTER THE CHURCH is taken up (raptured) it won't matter where the Jews ARE (or the Gentiles either) The death and suffering that will overtake the remaining unbelievers in this world will take place on an unprecedented scale. This world has seen some rough stuff but I believe THAT kind of tribulation that has been prophecied is unimaginable. I'm glad the Church won't be here for that. If you don't believe that then I'm sorry for you....truly sorry......

Actually I kinda feel sorry for you and millions like you. It doesn't take a genius to see that hard times are getting close, largely due to the looming economic implosion that seems inevitable because there are no leaders that have the will to bite the bullet, fess up and tell the American people what we need to do to face it head on before it happens. Instead of counting on being taken away out of it, perhaps you and your family would be immensely better off to be preparing for it, as in simply becoming as self reliant as possible, you know, just in case you're wrong and you're stuck here with all the rest of us.
 

Gregory Perry Sr.

Active Member
A Question....?

George,

Very well said and same here!

But it always comes down to the covenant a-mils and post-mils making up things to try to discredit the dispies.

Kim Riddlebarger, who is a good writer for a-mil theology in his oft quoted book on the subject writes that as a child he was totally captivated by dispie teachers that he heard on the radio or saw on the tube. Then he grew up and, due to his academic activities, dispensationalism lost it's shine so to speak. So one could say he "smarted" himself out of dispensationalism. But in other places he talks about his lineage and how they were all covenant to the core. So it begs the question, why were his reformed parents letting young Kim get all involved in pie in the sky theology? One could surmise that Dr. Riddlebarger is either taking liberties with reality or that his parents were less than totally diligent in their duties.

To go from a pre-mil dispensational theology to a a-mil or post mil or preterist theology, it is necessary to first embrace covenant theology. This is the real debate. Prove that Jehovah made a covenant of grace, works and/or the optional covenant of redemption and dispensationalism falls apart. But be of good cheer George for the Bible speaks not of these two or three covenants!

Interesting post...enjoyed reading it...but...WHO IS GEORGE?

Bro.Greg:laugh:
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've been saved since 1977 and never in all that time have I ever heard such a bizarre "take" on dispensational teachings or truth. Also, I AM NOT anti-semitic and just to disagree with the misguided statement of a professing Jew with a microphone stuck in his face does NOT make me an anti-semite....how ridiculous. We are to love and pray for the people and nation of Israel....however...Bible truth and common sense should dictate what we say and do remembering all along that even though the Jewish people are God's chosen people of promise, they are still lost sinners in need of their Saviour. God is sovereign and has/will accomplish His plan for the ages using His children be they Jew or Gentile. As a believer I can say that it is exciting to watch His plan unfold before us as prophecied in His word. The nation of Israel AND the New Testament Church of THIS dispensation are both an integral part of God's plan and part of His purpose. I'm just thankful to be saved and in His blessed Light. I just wish I was a more faithful witness for Him as the end approaches. He left us here to be His witnesses. I fail Him everyday and desire to overcome my weaknesses that I can serve Him more faithfully.

To close this let me just say that I love the Jewish people and also the Gentiles. ( I are one:laugh:) We are all one flesh of common descent. Our father is Adam and we are all sinners. God Himself made the only valid distinctions between us (Jew and Gentile) and He could do that because he is our Creator and He has His purpose. We are to evangelize the lost,be they jew or gentile. Saved and lost are the only two people groups that really matter. God WILL use the Jews for certain purposes and tasks both now and in the future in accordance with the promises He established with them long ago. As a dispensationalist and a gentile I am comfortable with that and not in any way jealous of their favored place in His "economy". I have my place too...."which things the angels desire to look into."(1 Peter 1:12) Salvation by grace through faith. (Eph.2:8-9) As saved people of God we all have our place and purpose in the Body of Christ! Hallelujah!!

Bro.Greg

"as the end approaches"

How sure are you that it's 'the end' that's coming?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
George,

A little off topic but consider this when you are trying to respond to the (mainly) preterist cut and paste crowd on this board. A fascinating area to study with respect to reformed covenant theology as it applies to Baptist is the way in which they deal with the actual act of water baptism.

As you know, one of the things that make us Baptist is the belief in "believers baptism". But, the bulk of covenant theologians are Presbyterian. As such, the big debate among the reformed, starting with Calvin is the answer to the question if baptism is the new sign of the new covenant, do we baptise the children of believers as a sign of the covenant to replace circumcision or do we wait for the believer to be mature enough to digest the historical creeds of the church?

A example of the problem in the form of a question is why did Paul have Timothy circumcised after he was baptised?



Thomas,
Do not make the mistake of thinking that the presbyterians do not make a biblical case for their position. At one point I naively thought that they had no case whatsoever, but I was mistaken.
As a baptist I think their position is inconsistent and has some flaws,that is why I remain a baptist.However it is a major error to think they cannot make a biblical case for their position.

To go from a pre-mil dispensational theology to a a-mil or post mil or preterist theology, it is necessary to first embrace covenant theology. This is the real debate. Prove that Jehovah made a covenant of grace, works and/or the optional covenant of redemption and dispensationalism falls apart. But be of good cheer George for the Bible speaks not of these two or three covenants!

Thomas....the two go hand in hand because of the flow of redemptive history.

Prove that Jehovah made a covenant of grace, works and/or the optional covenant of redemption and dispensationalism falls apart.
can i ask you a question here Thomas...before trying to prove or disprove anything???

Genesis 17:2
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.


Do you notice How God says...I will make ...MY Covenant.....with you.

Why do you think he says....MY Covenant....instead of OUR covenant?

If God speaks of His covenant....who was it made with...before he establishes it with Abraham??? When might God's covenant been made,and with who???

Have you ever thought of this? What do you think it means if it does not mean what most everyone else understands it to mean?
 

Gregory Perry Sr.

Active Member
Eyes WIDE OPEN

Actually I kinda feel sorry for you and millions like you. It doesn't take a genius to see that hard times are getting close, largely due to the looming economic implosion that seems inevitable because there are no leaders that have the will to bite the bullet, fess up and tell the American people what we need to do to face it head on before it happens. Instead of counting on being taken away out of it, perhaps you and your family would be immensely better off to be preparing for it, as in simply becoming as self reliant as possible, you know, just in case you're wrong and you're stuck here with all the rest of us.

Just so you'll know....I am one dispensationalist that has my eyes wide open and can clearly see that the citizens of this country and indeed the entire world are in for some very troubled times that may shortly befall us all. BUT...economic hard times and the kind of "tribulation" that is described in Revelation under the 7 year rule of the Anti-Christ are two different things entirely. That wicked and hateful ruler is going to perpetrate crimes against God and humanity that will make folks like Hitler appear mild. Matthew 24:22 directly says that if those days were not shortened (by God) NO FLESH (jew or gentile) would be saved.

I know we are headed for tough times but I also believe that God promised that the righteous would not be forsaken,nor His seed begging bread.(Psalm 37:23-28..wonderful promises of God) I believe with all my heart that God will take care of His own and I also believe we will be gone BEFORE the Anti-Christ "rises to power" for his "day in the sun". That seven years will be his opportunity to take out all his hatred of God on the human race. Those will be woeful days but.....God has NOT "appointed us to wrath". Hallelujah! Thank God for His GRACE!

Bro.Greg:praying:
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
Thomas,
Do not make the mistake of thinking that the presbyterians do not make a biblical case for their position. At one point I naively thought that they had no case whatsoever, but I was mistaken.

Thank you for your concern. I've studied the various presby positions on baptism and spent about 6 years in a presby church.


can i ask you a question here Thomas...before trying to prove or disprove anything???

No

Do you notice How God says...I will make ...MY Covenant.....with you.

Yes

Once again, you try but fail to deliver.
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
......and I also believe we will be gone BEFORE the Anti-Christ "rises to power" for his "day in the sun". That seven years will be his opportunity to take out all his hatred of God on the human race. Those will be woeful days but.....God has NOT "appointed us to wrath". Hallelujah! Thank God for His GRACE!

Bro.Greg:praying:

That is of course why in his little story about dispies, Gary (the pipsqueek) Demar is making up stuff when he states (in that dumb link at the beginning of this thread) that dispies want to get a bunch of Jews killed during the tribulation. This is because dispies teach that the church will not be around when the tribulation begins. Dispensationalism also teaches that Jehovah will bring this time to an end on His schedule, not man's.

As a dispie, I believe when the Bible says that the second coming of our Savior will be spectacular like the flood or possibly the march through the red sea. And yet the preterist think this already happened. Imagine they, the preterist sayng that they feel sorry for the misguided dispies! What we do is take the Bible seriously!
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.....the 7 year rule of the Anti-Christ are two different things entirely. That wicked and hateful ruler is going to perpetrate crimes against God and humanity that will make folks like Hitler appear mild......

Webdog says he's the twelfth Imam and some say he's alive in Iraq right now. Do you agree?
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.....We are to love and pray for the people and nation of Israel....however...Bible truth and common sense should dictate what we say and do remembering all along that even though the Jewish people are God's chosen people of promise....

Is this like another 'great commission'? Are we 'to love and pray for the people and nation of Israel' more so than for others, like, say, the Inuit? Are we more duty bound to the Jews than we are to the Inuit?

I'm really curious about this. What's the protocol for 'loving Israel'? How do you know if you're doing enough for them?

What are YOU doing for Israel?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Is this like another 'great commission'? Are we 'to love and pray for the people and nation of Israel' more so than for others, like, say, the Inuit? Are we more duty bound to the Jews than we are to the Inuit?

I'm really curious about this. What's the protocol for 'loving Israel'? How do you know if you're doing enough for them?

What are YOU doing for Israel?

In my opinion the special relation that Israel had with God was ended with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. They were chosen as the vessel through which God would bring the Redeemer first promised in Genesis into the world.

If an ethnic Israelite is to be saved they will be saved the same way as anyone else. I have told the story of my niece [by marriage], born of Jewish parents. on this Forum more than once. God will bring to salvation those who are His elect!
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In my opinion the special relation that Israel had with God was ended with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. They were chosen as the vessel through which God would bring the Redeemer first promised in Genesis into the world.

If an ethnic Israelite is to be saved they will be saved the same way as anyone else. I have told the story of my niece [by marriage], born of Jewish parents. on this Forum more than once. God will bring to salvation those who are His elect!

So you say we Christians are no more duty bound to the Jews than we are to the Inuit?

I think dispies say that we are.
 

Oldtimer

New Member
Actually I kinda feel sorry for you and millions like you. It doesn't take a genius to see that hard times are getting close, largely due to the looming economic implosion that seems inevitable because there are no leaders that have the will to bite the bullet, fess up and tell the American people what we need to do to face it head on before it happens. Instead of counting on being taken away out of it, perhaps you and your family would be immensely better off to be preparing for it, as in simply becoming as self reliant as possible, you know, just in case you're wrong and you're stuck here with all the rest of us.


What makes you think we haven't? ;) At least some of us?

Some of us remember the instructions to follow during the 7 years of feast, just in case 7 years of famine follow.

Genesis 1: KJB
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And God gave us the ability to divide the light from the darkness in our own lives, in more than one way. In this aspect of light:

Some of us have used 7 years of plently to provide for the ability to see at night, if the switch on the wall doesn't work for some reason.

Strike anywhere matches. Flint and steel. Oil lamps and fuel for same.
Ability to use stone lamps and animal fat for fuel. Propane powered lanterns. Camp fuel lanterns. Cattail torches. Candles of all types -- including experience/supplies to make more.

A couple of flashlights with half dead batteries don't count if we're in for 7 years of famine before our Lord calls us home. Either as a group or individually as our time in this body comes to an end.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What makes you think we haven't? ;) At least some of us?

Some of us remember the instructions to follow during the 7 years of feast, just in case 7 years of famine follow.

Genesis 1: KJB
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And God gave us the ability to divide the light from the darkness in our own lives, in more than one way. In this aspect of light:

Some of us have used 7 years of plently to provide for the ability to see at night, if the switch on the wall doesn't work for some reason.

Strike anywhere matches. Flint and steel. Oil lamps and fuel for same.
Ability to use stone lamps and animal fat for fuel. Propane powered lanterns. Camp fuel lanterns. Cattail torches. Candles of all types -- including experience/supplies to make more.

A couple of flashlights with half dead batteries don't count if we're in for 7 years of famine before our Lord calls us home. Either as a group or individually as our time in this body comes to an end.

You, Sir, are wise in this respect. I suppose I was raised a 'prepper', taught to be self reliant, and more importantly to hold myself accountable, as young as I can remember. My father could be a hard man, but I owe him much.

(P.S. I also was a Boy Scout-'Be Prepared'.) :)
 
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Remember Brother Larry, if we don't kowtow to everything that Israel wants, God's gonna toss us to the wayside. The same Israel who is STILL looking for the Messiah to come and do what was prophesied of Him to do(btw, He did, a little over 2,000 years ago). The same Israel who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the Door to the sheepfold. If you don't believe in that Door, you don't have access to the sheepfold/flock.
 
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