What is regeneration or new birth?

[savedbymercy]

Again, it is not Christ's work

Not the Washing of Regeneration, that is Christ's Work, the renewing of the Holy Ghost is the Spirit's Work ! Two different works !

The Washing of the Regeneration is the Collective Washing of the whole Church of God by His Blood Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The New Birth is when an Individual is born again of the Spirit, that is the renewing of the Holy Ghost. The One Produces the other or the one is the meritorious ground for the other !

 

[The Biblicist]

Not the Washing of Regeneration, that is Christ's Work, the renewing of the Holy Ghost is the Spirit's Work ! Two different works

1. First it does not say "washing of regenertion BY CHRIST and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

2. Second, your interpretation is repudiated by the Greek grammar as both "washing of regeneration AND renewing of the Holy Ghost" are all found in the same genitive case showing they are one grammatical unit attributed to the Holy Spirit. They are two different works performed by the ONE Holy Spirit.

δια λουτρου παλιγγενεσιας και ανακαινωσεως πνευματος αγιου

However, I am not going to argue this point no longer with you.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

1. First it does not say "washing of regenertion BY CHRIST

Is that your excuse, not a good one because it does not say its not the washing of regeneration by Christ. However I proved that is what it means.

Second, your interpretation is repudiated by the Greek grammar as both "washing of regeneration AND renewing of the Holy Ghost" are all found in the same genitive case showing they are one grammatical unit attributed to the Holy Spirit.

Thats a greek scholar argument all day long,not worth it, but the Washing of Regeneration saved the Elect and the Renewing of the Spirit saved the Elect experientially.

The Blood of Christ alone saved the Elect from the Penalty of sin, New birth has nothing to do with that !

 

[Yeshua1]

the bib



Is that your excuse, not a good one because it does not say its not the washing of regeneration by Christ. However I proved that is what it means.



Thats a greek scholar argument all day long,not worth it, but the Washing of Regeneration saved the Elect and the Renewing of the Spirit saved the Elect experientially.

The Blood of Christ alone saved the Elect from the Penalty of sin, New birth has nothing to do with that !

When does God see the sinner be saved "In Christ" before or after faith placed in him?

And can a person be saved without having the Holy spirit indwelling them? For unless a sinner has received jesus by faith, NO Spirit in him, thus NOT of Christ!

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Is that your excuse, not a good one because it does not say its not the washing of regeneration by Christ. However I proved that is what it means.

No you did not. Matthew 19:28 is the only passage you could find with the word "regeneration" and it refers to when the apostles will judge Israel of upon their thrones. Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven rather than upon his own "throne" in the NEW AGE (regeneration) to come.

You have proved nothing but complete nonsense.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think most of us will agree it is an INTERNAL event produced by the power of God.

We will not all agree in defining what it is or how it is obtained.

At this point I will not attempt to prove what I believe it is but I will simply state what I believe and look at your responses:

A. General obvious definition:

It is the exact reversal of the descriptive characteristics of the unregenerated condition.

B. Specific definition:

It is the creation of a new inward nature (new heart) that did not come by natural birth but by the power of God. It is effected by immediate and direct revelation of God in the face of Jesus Christ as revealed in the gospel mixed with faith that cleanses the conscience from the guilt of sin and produces inward peace with God.

In Titus 3:5 the work of regeneration/new birth is a CREATIVE act by God that produces an inward NEW man by a Negative and positive creative work:

1. NEGATIVELY: WASHING/CLEASING act of the Spirit of God that removes the defilement of sin from the spirit of man making it the dwelling place of the Spirit of God and cleanses the guilt from the conscience - Eph. 2:10; Jn. 3:6; Heb. 9:14

2. POSTIVELY: RENEWING act of the Spirit of God that restores the image of God: - Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Regeneration/new birth reverses the internal condition of the unregenerated state which is describe in part in Ephesians 4:18:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Regeneration/new birth reverses "the understanding darkened" by spiritual enlightenment (1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 1:18).

Regeneration/new birth reverse "alienated from the life of God THROUGH IGNORANCE" by direct revelation of God through Christ through the spirit of man to his mind removing ignorance and thereby establishing spiritual union with God through Christ (Mt. 16:17; Jn. 17:3; 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10)

Regeneration/new birth reverses "the blindness of their heart" by giving them a seeing and perceivng believing new heart (Ezek. 36:26; Rom. 10:8-10).

Regeneration/new birth does not occur in heaven or by the work of Christ but on earth and by the work of the Holy Spirit INSIDE of man. Matthew 19:28 does not refer to anything in this age or in heaven but in the new age to come when Christ physically reigns upon his throne ON EARTH and the twelve apostles sit upon their thrones reigning over Israel.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

No you did not.

Yes i did !

Matthew 19:28 is the only passage you could find with the word "regeneration" and it refers to when the apostles will judge Israel of upon their thrones.

The Apostles began Judging the Elect of God as soon as the Day of Pentecost began ! They were given the Keys to the Kingdom Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I explained this already here:

The Keys to the Kingdom 1

Matt 16:17-19

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The disciples of Christ, save the traitor judas, that the scripture may be fulfilled [ See Jn 17:12], they were given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven; That is they were given by Christ their Risen Saviour and Lord great authority spiritually, that they now sit upon Thrones Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, Which is also the Church or the Israel of God, the Body of Christ Gal 6:16

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God or the Church of God.

They more than any others were equipped by the Holy Spirit to be able to precisely make Judgments in regards to Faith and Practice of the Body of Christ, and the remaining Body of Christ or Israel of God should believe on Christ through THEIR WORD as Per Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[a] believe in Me through their word;

Nothing has changed from the New Testament Era, and such as should Be Saved shall continue in the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship Acts 2:42

And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

All understanding of the OT and its fulfillment , should come from the Apostles Doctrines alone, for if not, we fall into private interpretation ! All matters of Salvation, Justification and Faith, and Christian practice, even eschatology should be understood from the Teachings of the Apostle's who were given the Keys of the Kingdom by the Lord Jesus Christ. They are the princes here Isa 32:1

[ A Reign of Righteousness ] Behold, a king[Jesus Christ] will reign in righteousness, And princes[The Apostles] will rule with justice.

The Twelve Apostles to include he that was born out of due time Paul, enjoyed the Highest Authority and Power in the Israel of God, and this continues through their sacred epistles ! Remember it is First Apostles set up in the Church Eph 4:10-12

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ or the Israel of God:

1 Cor 12:28

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Everything after the Apostles is merely secondarily, that goes for pastors and etc..

Keys of the Kingdom 2

The Keys to the Kingdom was also that they were given direct Inspiration of God to write the very words of God and it was given of both Christ and the Father and The Spirit so much authority, that John was able to say 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

For instance it is said of scripture 2 Tim 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And it is said of Paul's Epistles 2 Pet 3:15-16

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Compare Johns Words in 1 Jn 4:6 with Jesus words here Jn 8:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

What is similar ?

Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven rather than upon his own "throne" in the NEW AGE (regeneration) to come.

Christ is NOW sitting on His Own Throne, He and His Father are One

Acts 2 proves that Christ now sits on His Own throne of David after the Resurrection Acts 2:30-31

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Apostles began Judging the Elect of God as soon as the Day of Pentecost began ! They were given the Keys to the Kingdom Matt 16:17-19

Amazing how anyone can beleive such utter rediculous nonsense! The "keys" of authority had been taken from Israel's leaders (Mt. 21:43). It refers to the administrative authority as found in the Great Commission. It refers to the exercise of church discipline (Mt. 18:15-18). It is not something restricted to the office of Apostle as it resides in the church (Mt. 18::17-18).

If your rediculous intepretation were correct than the PLURAL "keys" (church discipline, administration of ordinances, teaching authority, authority to make disciples, authority to preach the gospel in announcing remission of sins to those who believe and condemnation upon those who do not; etc.) died with the office of Apostle.

If your rediculous intepretation were correct then the apostles are now dethroned and the "regeneration" has ceased to exist.

You can't have your cake and eat it too! Sitting on their thones over Israel cannot be on earth and in heaven both. They are dead and there is no transfer of thrones to heaven.

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ in the Regeneration, that is where He presently sits on His Meditorial Throne, He did pour out or shed the Holy Spirit upon all who should be saved by New Birth Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


This looks back to here Acts 2:30-33


30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

[The Biblicist]

Christ in the Regeneration, that is where He presently sits on His Meditorial Throne.....

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God

He is not sitting on HIS THRONE in the regeneration but he is sitting AT THE RIGHT HAND of the Father's Throne in heaven! He will not sit on HIS THRONE until he comes again as King of kings and Lord of lord's and sits on HIS THRONE over this earth (Mt. 25:31-33).

YOu are one messed up dude! You don't know the difference between sitting at THE RIGHT HAND of the Father's Throne and sittig on HIS throne.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Amazing how anyone can beleive such utter rediculous nonsense

lol, Well as it has been stated 1 Cor 2:14


14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness or nonesense unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



lol, Well as it has been stated 1 Cor 2:14


14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness or nonesense unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.

yes, that explains your mind quite well. You are a heretic and your heresies permeate every aspect of your theology.

The "keys" PLURAL of the kingdom are the ADMINISTRATIVE AUTHORITY given to the church through its ordained representatives (Mt. 18:17-18) and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the future regeneration and reigning over the twelve tribes of Israel. The so-called spiritual Israe is never characterized as divided into twelve tribes much less being reigned over by the Apostles here and now! Christ reigns over the kingdom on earth not the Apostles.

 

[percho]

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Resurrected from the dead. Was that regeneration?

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,

By Jesus receiving the promise of Holy Spirit from the father, was this a renewing of the Holy Spirit?

Romans 5:10 YLT for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

through washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit, (in his life, the resurrected life of Jesus) we shall be saved

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Col. 3:3,4 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[The Biblicist]

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Resurrected from the dead. Was that regeneration?

No, the resurrection is not what Titus 3:5 refers to any more than Matthew 19:28 is what Titus 3:5 refers to.

The Age to come (Mt. 19:28) is a CHANGED world as much as the resurrection to come obtains a CHANGED body.

Regeneration is change in the spirit of man wrought by the Holy Spirit - John 3:6

 

[The Biblicist]

No, the resurrection is not what Titus 3:5 refers to any more than Matthew 19:28 is what Titus 3:5 refers to.

The Age to come (Mt. 19:28) is a CHANGED world as much as the resurrection to come obtains a CHANGED body.

Regeneration is change in the spirit of man wrought by the Holy Spirit - John 3:6

Titus 3:5 has nothing to do with Matthew 19:28 and the evidence is as follows:

Mt. 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Verse 28 is a response to Peter's question in verse 27. The apostles did not receive houses and lands and riches after Christ ascended into heaven to sit NOT ON HIS THRONE but at the right hand of the Father's throne. Indeed, the apostles nor we receive NO REWARDS for our sevice until after the judgement. The "regeneration" in verse 28 occurs AFTER the judgment of rewards and refers to the NEW AGE yet to come when Christ sits on HIS OWN THRONE of Glory:

Mt. 24:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory , and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[David Michael Harris]

Its the Grace of God coming to you personally, God showing mercy and calling you to Glory. Read James and Peter. I believe that anyone born again will seek to be baptised and will not rest till they go under that water bacause they know it's imperative.

 

[The Biblicist]

Its the Grace of God coming to you personally, God showing mercy and calling you to Glory. Read James and Peter. I believe that anyone born again will seek to be baptised and will not rest till they go under that water bacause they know it's imperative.

David,

I can't remember discussing anything with you before. If we have, then it is my poor memory. However, it is good to make your acquaintance again or for the first time.

I agree with you that regeneration is the grace of God coming to you personally. However, even after regeneration we continue to access the grace of God wherein we initially were made to stand (Rom. 5:2). God also continues to show us mercy after regeneration. I do believe regeneration is the effectual call to glory (2 Thes. 2:14).

However, regeneration is more than that. It is a change of nature (Eph. 2:1-3; 4:19) and inward transformation (Titus 3:5; Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24) whereby we become a new creation within or the creation of a "new" inward man (Eph. 2:10a).

I am a trichotomist when its comes to the human nature of man and I believe regeneration is the salvation of the human spirit, cleansing it from the defilement of Sin and making it the inner abode/temple of the indwelling Spirit of God from whence He progressively renews our mind to "put on" the new man in our conscious life for the glory of God. As we put on the new man in our affections and outward life (words, actions) we save our life for His glory and is the basis for receiving rewards later.

I do believe baptism is an imperative but not for our actual literal salvation. Like circucmision, it is an external "sign" and like any other commandment of God is to be obeyed but like circumcision is an outward "figure" (1 Pet. 3:21) rather than any necessary connection in obtaining literal salvation.

I hope we are agreed on baptism. Baptism has NOTHING to do with literal regeneration any more than circumcision had to do with literal salvation (Acts 15:1; Rom. 4:11).

 

[David Michael Harris]

I agree, seems to me your just stating the obvious though. I don't go into long arguments but from what you have said, I don't really have a problem anyway. After being called and reborn we make of it what we will. But I will point to the importance of baptism though. Heaven loves it. It shows we really believe. For the true believer that is, there are many people who get baptised and are not Christian. Such is the state of Christianity now in 2012

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree, seems to me your just stating the obvious though. I don't go into long arguments but from what you have said, I don't really have a problem anyway. After being called and reborn we make of it what we will. But I will point to the importance of baptism though. Heaven loves it. It shows we really believe. For the true believer that is, there are many people who get baptised and are not Christian. Such is the state of Christianity now in 2012

I absolutely agree that the right emphasis on baptism is lacking today and it needs to be reemphasized. I believe John's baptism is "Christ-ian" baptism, is the baptism of the Great Commission and is the "counsel of God" and is rejected by most professing Christians today.

 

[David Michael Harris]

I have always thought of John's call to repentance and baptism was a sort of precursor to Christ and the Gospel. Sort of making straight the Way, leveling obstacles etc etc...