I said certain spiritual truths are not obvious in Scripture, and gave examples.
I have a couple of questions for you. 1) Holding as you do to Sola Scriptura do you or do you not believe that all doctrines expounded in scripture can be assertained easily and simply by born again believers simply by reading them? 2) If not to what authority do you apeal to judge these non-obvious "truths"? 3) if So then wouldn't they be obvious? 4) have you considered the position of the gnostic who believed in a secret knowledge that was not obvious to the average believer and could only be assertained by a certain wisdom above all other Christians? 5) How is your perspective different from them? 6) Have you considered the Montanist who had similar beliefs that you have proposed yet they exhibited "false prophesies" and subjected scripture lower than their experience? 7) If Montanist where heretics (as I believe them to have been) what makes your position superior to theirs?
First of all, do you have a problem with all of them?
I don't have any problems with any of the giftings of the Holy Spirit. I do have issues with Pentecostal theology and application of their theology to the workings of the Holy Spirit.
I have given the verses which explain this baptism and its' corresponding 9 gifts.
I Know the verses and they do speak to a special giving of grace by the Holy Spirit upon believers. However, I don't believe that "tongues" must necissarily be manifested to "evidence" this grace or "baptism" as you call it. Again. Jesus is never recorded to have spoken in tongues. And Paul's subjects the importance of tongues to the practice of moral discipline and exemplifying love and Knowing the word of God. In fact Paul is almost dismissive of these "giftings" and places them below Christian discipline forcing a discipline when it came to these gifts.
The NT doesn't say all of this necessary spiritual power has been discontinued.
I never said that is has. However, I did say that what is necessary is what is needed. As in, I'm sick therefore I need a gifting of healing rather than someone running around speaking in tongues. And note Paul indicates that the use of tongues be limited to personal use quietly and only in congregation if one were to prophesy with a translation. Note at the begining of the church the Apostles spoke in tongues which communicated the glory of God to people in their own language during Pentecost. And gentiles spoke in tongues as a sign to the apostles that the faith wasn't limited to Judaism. Beyond that there wasn't much more use for that gifting. And in fact that gifting became problematic in Corinth where Paul had to instruct the members to limit its use. There is a time and place for certain giftings.
And notice that people who misuse them have nothing to do with any of this.
Certainly, however, having traveled in Pentecostal circles the misuse of their "gifting" happens quite often and I think its because of an improper view of what those gifts should be.
Jesus was very harsh with those having unbelief ... in some respects He was trying to shake them awake.
Be specific. Jesus was harsh with unbelief in him. Even after he had performed a miracle in the full view of witnesses and people still didn't believe. That has nothing to do with the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I am pushing Christians to open themselves up to a DEEPER spiritual experience,
That is always good. However, to get to a "deeper" spiritual experience isn't the same as emotionalism. I find a "deeper" spiritual experience is often accompanied by suffering. And seriously practicing the call Jesus gives to each one of us, to strive, and mainly "Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect".
and to be open to being used by the Lord with new-found spiritual power.
Spiritual Power of God often learning to rely on his strength rather than our own and to trust when it seems there is no reason to trust in God. True spiritual power comes in our prayers and reliance on God. Not in the ability to speak in tongues.
I.E. Those who ask for spiritual things often receive them (Matt. 7:7-11).
True but what does the scripture more often asks us to ask for? More times that spiritual "giftings" like tongues? The answer is of course is wisdom.
Don't forget the persistent widow.
Yes, I haven't forgoten. But look at the context of that passage. It starts with the purpose of that parable in Luke 18
And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
Its not about "getting spiritual gifts" but the necessity of praying and not loosing heart in our faith.
Jesus gave me mine (in 1993) about 3 years after first asking.
Pentecostals call this "tarrying" at the altar..
I'm glad that you have an emotional experience which gives you evidence for your faith. And as for "Tarrying at the Alter" I believe it emphasises all the wrongs things about our faith. Cornelius didn't have to "Tarry at the Alter". This consept comes from Pentecost. When Jesus said before his death, resurrection, and ascension that
I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Jesus had to leave in order for the Holy Spirit to come for what end? Well, Jesus says so you can speak in tongues? No. He says
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
and
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
And note he also told his disciples to wait until he got to his rightful place
And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high
whereby waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of witnessing
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
However, its interesting to note that they did not stick themselves in a room praying until the Holy Spirit came but first settle the issue of who would be the next apostles
So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
and when you read about the upper room it doesn't seem they were tarrying day and night until the spirit came but it happened at the time they were praying among other things they were also doing. and since Pentecost was a high Jewish holy day they happened to be together praying as was customary at the time
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested[a] on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And looked what quickly followed
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a specified event at the begining of the Church empowering the Apostles to proclaim Christ. Tongues at this point were for the expressed purpose of witnessing not for their emotional benefit. When we look at cornelius they herd the Gospel believed and simultaniously recieved the Holy Spirit it came upon them at their new life not secondarily. The church was baptized in the Holy Spirit at the begining now everytime someone comes to belief they are given the Holy Spirit and since tongues aren't always necissary its not always evidenced of the fact. The fact that someone has come to belief is evidence enough of the granting of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you...But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you...When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you...
