Unconditional Eternal Security of Once Saved, Always Saved

[Brother Wayne]

I've been doing some in-depth study of the eternal security issue and wrote up some of the things I found when I studied some of the main passages that people have used to support this theory. I know it could seem like I am imposing on Baptist theology to question this issue, but we must look at everything through the Bible as the determining factor.

I know this is a bit lengthy, but I would ask you to read the whole thing before you kick me. I also have a long collection of scriptures in the Bible that support that a Christian can indeed lose his/her salvation that I might post later in this thread.

Where did the ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ idea originate?

It is clear from reading the writings of the early church in the first two and one half centuries after Christ that they did not uphold any idea that it was impossible for a christian to lose salvation. In fact, they defined this idea as heresy (read the quotes that are listed lower in this article). It is often said that John Calvin was the father of this belief, but from reading the quotes from the early church it would appear that the idea had already been around prior to Calvin.

Augustine, the bishop of Hippo born in 354AD, was the first major initiator of this persuasion. He was a Roman Catholic, and is responsible for much of what we consider "Catholic" doctrine today. Surprisingly, he can also be credited with being a major player in Protestant thought also. He did not teach eternal security as we know it today, but he was a key figure in setting the groundwork that is the basis in which this doctrine could thrive. Here is a short list, which shows many of the doctrines that he was credited with introducing into the church.

1. Absolute predestination
2. Impossibility of falling away or apostasy. (Eternal Security)
3. Man has no free will.
4. One cannot know if they are saved.
5. God commands impossibilities.
6. The supreme authority of the Roman church.
7. Purgatory.
8. Prayers for the dead.
9. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
10. Sex is sinful because depravity is inherited.

Martin Luther and John Calvin, who are well-known to Protestants today, later adopted some of the doctrines of Augustine as we well know. Calvin’s "Five points of Calvinism" closely resemble the some of the very points that Augustine addressed.

1. Total Depravity
2. Unconditional Election (Salvation is decreed apart from any change in an individual.)
3. Limited Atonement (Jesus "paid" for the "elect" that he desired to save. No one else!)
4. Imputed righteousness (mystical transfer of righteousness in place of our filthy rags)
5. Perseverance of the saints. (Assurance, eternal security)

Other men such as Theodore Beza were influential in taking Calvin’s teaching and developing what we call Calvinism today.

Anyway, I won’t go into further detail on the history, but this will give us a little starting point for the following discussion.


Arguments used to support unconditional eternal security

A common substrata that the eternal security theory falls back upon is the use of anthropomorphism, I.E. human images used to describe God’s relationship to us. Images such as Father, Good Shepard, son, Judge, etc,... are anthropomorphism. The fact that God is our Father is sometimes used in a way that goes beyond the plain words of Scripture. For an example, here is an actual quote from an eternal security advocate:

"No matter how much I tell my father that I am not his son, the TRUTH of the matter is that I will ALWAYS be his son, regardless of where I go or what I do, and I can never change his genes within me that bear witness to this. And likewise with God, no matter how much I try to tell him that I am no longer his son, I will ALWAYS be his son and will be unable to remove his spiritual "genes." The Holy Spirit was "intercoursed" into my spirit when I was saved."

The problem with arguments like these, besides that they go against the clear words of Scripture, is that they sometimes prove too much! We were all born children of the devil; according to the above argument, we cannot lose our son-ship because genetics cannot be changed. All this proves is that no one can ever become a child of God! Besides, we are adopted into the family of God aren’t we? There is nothing Biblical about the above quotation, but people buy into these arguments every day. We must be careful not to get carried away in the application of these thoughts. It is of utmost importance that we read and study the word of God and become firmly anchored in Jesus teaching, rather than the teachings of some theologian.

More coming...

 

[Brother Wayne]

Evaluating the pillars of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29
With a small amount of scholarship, this verse can be cleared up. In the Greek text, the hearing and following are in the present tense. It means that only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep. Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Who are secure? The sheep. Who cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep. Who is Jesus giving (present tense) eternal life? Those who are sheep. Who are the sheep? Who shall never perish? Who is Christ giving eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one who heard and followed, but only those who actively believe now with an obedient faith. It is not woks but genuine faith! This is true biblical security.
The term "snatch" means to take by force. This promise guarantees that the npman can remove the believer (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. Just as we have made the choice to hear and follow the shepherd, so we can chode to stop following and turn away from God.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39
First of all, we see that it doesn't “Who shall separate us from the salvation of Christ”. So is this refering to salvation? No. God has an unconditional love for the lost as we can see in John 3:16. Other passages, such as the account in Mark 10:21,22 of the rich young ruler, who Jesus "beholding him loved him," further show the unconditional love of God, yet the ruler went away lost and grieved.
Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible? In John 14:21 the conditionality of God's love is expressed this way, "He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, is he that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and manifest myself to him." Notice the clear and unambiguous words of Jesus, "He that hath my commandments and keeps them . . . is loved of my Father, and I will love him." Only bias and prejudice could impel one to deny the obvious conclusion that sin and rebellion is not the keeping of Christ's commandments, and that rebellious sinners are not in the love of God. In John 15:10 Jesus makes the same point again by inference, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
Who shall separate us? Paul is addressing two elements here, one being "us." It is only those who are "in Christ" that Paul is concerned with here, and not humanity overall. Notice that the designation "who" is not the believer himself, but that influence or circumstance that is outside the believer. The entire listing of Paul is consistent with this context. Death, life, angels, principalities, powers, et cetera, are all elements that do not include the moral choice of the individual who is now a believer. God's love is present in those who are in Christ, regardless if their circumstances in this life seem to give the impression that his love and protection is being withheld from them.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6
Paul had his confidence that God would continue his justifying and sanctifying work in them all the way to the end. Yet what was Paul's confidence in? Was it that he believed they were eternally secure and he wanted them to know it? This is what the eternal security proponents want us to believe.

Paul was confident of their perseverance only because they had "fellowship in the gospel from... THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW." Paul tells what his confidence is based on, and that is what we should believe. If there was a group of believers who showed nothing but good fruit from the day of their conversion until now, then there would be no other choice but to have confidence in the grace of God for them.
Please take note that the Scriptures never state this kind of confidence for those who are lukewarm or "sinning saints." This promise is only for genuine, obedient believers! Paul himself thought that was "meet" or "just" for him to think this way about them (verse 7). They had given Paul absolutely no reason to doubt that they were genuine Christians!

Who are kept by the power of God through faith . . . I Peter 1:5
Notice the condition to this security. It is through faith. Sin is not faith. It is unbelief, or anti-faith. As long as believers are constantly abiding in the faith, the power of God keeps them. Since they have their faith in Jesus Christ, they have the security that is promised.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29
The individual's salvation is not the intent of the context here. It is the love of God for the nation of Israel. If one wishes to argue that "salvation is a gift, and therefore cannot be taken back by God" one would be inclined to agree with that. God does not take salvation away from us. We throw it away! It is our act of unbelief that brings separation and forces us to be broken off from the life of God. Look! In the preceding verses God tells us that many in Israel were "broken off" because of unbelief! We are also warned that we too can also be broken off unless we continue to "stand by faith." (Romans 11:20-21).

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37
Who are given to Christ? Those who come by faith. What is promised is nothing more than that anyone who casts his faith upon the Christ will not be turned away! Believers do not have to fear that the availability of salvation is limited in any way.

And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day. John 6:39
Many confuse God's will with God's decree. It is also God's will that none should perish, and that all would come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). It is the Father's will (desire) that Jesus should not "lose" any, but this is an ideal, and not a proof of the inability of falling away. For in John 17:12 Jesus said, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "none shall be lost," there was at least one of the chosen twelve that was! The will of God never violates the free will he has given us to exercise!

In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
The only way that this can be perceived as a proof for eternal security is to have the support of some verse where the doctrine has already been proven. Standing alone as it does, it renders nothing that teachers of carnal security can use. The verse does not say whether believers can break this seal or not, but the whole of Scripture proves that they can. Observe that the Holy Spirit is only a down payment on our inheritance and that we do not possess the fullness of this gift until the Lord returns. The fullness of this promise is only to those who endure to the end. The Scriptures tell us to "Be faithful until death and I will give you a crown of life." (Rev. 3:5,21). The Lord preserves the faithful (Psalms 31:23), not the unfaithful. This is the true perseverance of the Saints!

Maybe more later but I'd like to hear what you have to say first. If it weren't for the many other scriptures that disagree with Once Saved, Always Saved, I would have had no reason to question it, but when I looked at these passages closer I soon saw some flaws in the interpretation that many men have formed.

 

[Van]

I am looking forward to the "more coming" but let me say I appreciate the effort to example our doctrines to see if they really reflect what the bible actually teaches. So no need to disparage your effort.

Since I believe the idea that it is impossible to lose salvation once a person is actually saved by God putting us spiritually in Christ, I am incredulous concerning the claim the early church did not proclaim it as doctrine.

Now lets look at the argument we became spiritual "children of God" when God put us spiritually "in Christ" where we underwent the circumcision of Christ and then arose in Christ a new creation. So the barriers are (1) God put us "in Christ" we did not put ourselves in Christ, and (2) God caused our spiritual rebirth, i.e. made alive together with Christ. If God took these two actions, setting us apart in Christ, and causing us to be new creations created for good works, we then would not be able to undo what God had done.

Yes, many accept that our fallen condition is "transmitted" through biological reproduction, but many who support OSAS, believe our fallen condition is "transmitted" spiritually. God forms our spirit within us in a separated from God state, because we are born in iniquity. Thus by the sin of the one, the many were made sinners. Note Eve was fallen, made a sinner by the sin of Adam, and she this fallen condition was not transmitted to her at conception.

 

[Van]

Evaluating the pillars of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29
With a small amount of scholarship, this verse can be cleared up. In the Greek text, the hearing and following are in the present tense. It means that only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep. Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Who are secure? The sheep. Who cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep. Who is Jesus giving (present tense) eternal life? Those who are sheep. Who are the sheep? Who shall never perish? Who is Christ giving eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one who heard and followed, but only those who actively believe now with an obedient faith. It is not woks but genuine faith! This is true biblical security.
The term "snatch" means to take by force. This promise guarantees that the no man can remove the believer (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. Just as we have made the choice to hear and follow the shepherd, so we can choose to stop following and turn away from God.

The verse reads "my sheep" not "the sheep." There the sheep that cannot be snatched out of God's hand are those sheep that have been put into His hand, not the sheep which have not been put spiritually in Christ.

If we look at 1 Peter 3:5 we see that for those actually born again, God keeps them, as in a jail cell with the door locked, through protection of their faith, i.e. the born again will always love Jesus but their walk may not earn rewards, therefore they enter heaven as one escaping from a fire.

Since we did not become "my sheep" by professing Christ, but only when God who knows our heart, credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, and sets us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, do we become "my sheep."

 

[OldRegular]

Romans 8:29, 30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where in the above Scripture are we told anything other than that those God chooses unto salvation He will call, justify, and glorify?

 

[OldRegular]

Since I believe the idea that it is impossible to lose salvation once a person is actually saved by God putting us spiritually in Christ, I am incredulous concerning the claim the early church did not proclaim it as doctrine.

Now lets look at the argument we became spiritual "children of God" when God put us spiritually "in Christ" where we underwent the circumcision of Christ and then arose in Christ a new creation. So the barriers are (1) God put us "in Christ" we did not put ourselves in Christ, and (2) God caused our spiritual rebirth, i.e. made alive together with Christ. If God took these two actions, setting us apart in Christ, and causing us to be new creations created for good works, we then would not be able to undo what God had done.

Well said! The OP completely ignores the point you make above. When God saves us we are placed in Jesus Christ and are made a new creation in Him!

Jude 1. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

And we are kept in Jesus Christ by God!

2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ephesians 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Van]

Evaluating the pillars of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39
First of all, we see that it doesn't “Who shall separate us from the salvation of Christ”. So is this refering to salvation? No. God has an unconditional love for the lost as we can see in John 3:16. Other passages, such as the account in Mark 10:21,22 of the rich young ruler, who Jesus "beholding him loved him," further show the unconditional love of God, yet the ruler went away lost and grieved.
Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible? In John 14:21 the conditionality of God's love is expressed this way, "He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, is he that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and manifest myself to him." Notice the clear and unambiguous words of Jesus, "He that hath my commandments and keeps them . . . is loved of my Father, and I will love him." Only bias and prejudice could impel one to deny the obvious conclusion that sin and rebellion is not the keeping of Christ's commandments, and that rebellious sinners are not in the love of God. In John 15:10 Jesus makes the same point again by inference, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
Who shall separate us? Paul is addressing two elements here, one being "us." It is only those who are "in Christ" that Paul is concerned with here, and not humanity overall. Notice that the designation "who" is not the believer himself, but that influence or circumstance that is outside the believer. The entire listing of Paul is consistent with this context. Death, life, angels, principalities, powers, et cetera, are all elements that do not include the moral choice of the individual who is now a believer. God's love is present in those who are in Christ, regardless if their circumstances in this life seem to give the impression that his love and protection is being withheld from them.

Lets consider the "love of Christ" in this passage. Certain God and Jesus does love the world, fallen mankind, John 3:16. That is why God gave His Son to save that which was lost. But could Paul us that phrase to refer to another kind of love. If you look down to the last part of your passage, you will see that this love is "in Christ Jesus." So the phrase refers to being spiritually "in Christ Jesus" which is where we become children of God and heirs to eternal life.

Second, Jude 21 tells us to keep ourselves in the love of God, using the phrase to refer to to us behaving in a manner loved by God. God hates sin, so it is telling us to avoid sin and stay on the righteous path following our Shepherd, for we are His sheep.

As far as John 14, lets start with verse 16, where Jesus promises that God will give His sheep the helper, our indwelt Holy Spirit, for as long as we choose. Nope, not what it says, it says we are given the Holy Spirit forever. Nobody believes if a person could lose their status as a born again child of God, they would take the Holy Spirit with them!

But you raise a good point concerning "conditionality." Any of us who love Jesus, as indicating by us knowing and doing His commandments, "shall be loved [unconditionally]by My Father, and I will love Him [unconditionally] and will disclose Myself to him [through the leading of the Holy Spirit forever]. So the condition refers to God determining whether you love Jesus. What is the commandment, love God with all your heart,mind and soul? Go all in for Jesus, believe from the heart.

Verse 23 makes the point between a conditional and an unconditional. If we love Him, we will be fully committed, keeping as best we can His word, and if God credits our heart-felt faith and devotion as righteousness, He will put us spiritually in Christ, where we then are loved unconditionally.

In John 15:10 when it says "abide in His love" that means we have been chosen and set apart spiritually in Christ. Note that John teaches once a person is given to Jesus, i.e. spiritually placed in Christ, Christ will not cast his or her out.

In sum, once born again with our faith protected such that we love Jesus unfailingly, we will not choose to seek a way out of locked cell we are being kept in for our inheritance of eternal life.

 

[Bronconagurski]

When I first got saved I understood that I had eternal life. I was just dumb enough to believe that eternal is eternal. I haven't change one bit.

 

[Van]

Evaluating the pillars of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’

Who are kept by the power of God through faith . . . I Peter 1:5
Notice the condition to this security. It is through faith. Sin is not faith. It is unbelief, or anti-faith. As long as believers are constantly abiding in the faith, the power of God keeps them. Since they have their faith in Jesus Christ, they have the security that is promised.

Lets consider the passage 1 Peter 1:3-5:

1) It says God caused us to be born again. We did not cause ourselves to be born again and we could not cause ourselves to be somehow unborn again.

2) We have a hope of eternal life with Jesus Christ because we believe God raised Jesus from the dead and therefore will resurrect us upon Christ's return. So our hope depends on no loss of salvation.

3) Our inheritance, as a spiritual child of God is reserved in heaven for us. Thus to lose our inheritance we would have to be disowned by God, yet His promise is to never leave us.

4) Born again believers are protected, by the power of God through faith. The word "through" in the Greek is "dia" and means enter or cross a boundary, as in going into a room through a door. Thus the faith comes before the protection, not the other way around. Therefore we obtained the protection through our love and faith in Jesus, because that was the basis of being placed in Christ and born again. But does this also say our protection is sustained by our faith? Nope. Once born again, after our faith has been credited by God, the power of God protects us including our faith. So we may backslide and get side tracked into ineffective ministry, but we still get to heaven as one escaping from a fire.

 

[Brother Wayne]

Since I believe the idea that it is impossible to lose salvation once a person is actually saved by God putting us spiritually in Christ, I am incredulous concerning the claim the early church did not proclaim it as doctrine.

Here is a list of quotes made by some of the first apologists in the fist to centuries after Christ. I found most of these quotes from the Dictonary of Early Christian Beliefs that contains many quotes derived from the writtings of these men.

“We aught indeed to walk so holily and with so entire substantiality of our faith, as to be confident and secure in regard to our own conscience desiring that it may remain in us to the end. Yet we should not presume, for he who presumes, feels less apprehension, he who feels less apprehension takes less precaution, he who takes less precaution runs more risk. Fear is the foundation of salvation. Presumption is an impediment to fear. More useful then is it to apprehend that we may possibly fall, than to presume that we cannot, for apprehension will lead us to fear, fear to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us.” Tertullian

“Certain ones of those heretics who hold different opinions misuse these passages, they essentially destroy freewill by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” Origen

“I hold further that those of you who have confessed and known this man as Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation and have denied that this man is Christ and have not repented before death, you will by no means be saved.” Justin Martyr

“Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good deeds... and why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say? All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man. For it is in mans' power to disobey God and forfeit what is good.” Irenaeus

"Let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end." Second Clement

“Since all things are seen and heard by God, let us fear him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that thought his mercy we may be protected from the judgments to come for where can any of us flee from his mighty hand.” Clement of Rome

“God hath foreseen that faith, even after Baptist would be endangered. He saw that most persons would be lost again by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their lamps.” Tertullian

OK, we do not consider these quotes to be inspired by God, but they can surely be used to remove all doubt from our minds on what the apostles believed concerning this issue. These men were writing the things that had been passed on to them from the apostles. Many of the men whose quotes I pasted above had first or secondhand teaching from the apostles. If the apostles believed in unconditional eternal security, why didn’t his close followers?

 

[Winman]

I believe there are many verses that SEEM to say that a person can lose salvation, but I do not believe a person who has truly trusted Christ can lose it.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here Jesus said that any person who believes on him has everlasting life (present tense) and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed (past tense) from death to life. If a person could lose salvation after trusting Christ, then this verse could not be true. If a person could lose salvation they would indeed come into condemnation after believing on Jesus.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse says that NOW we are the sons of God. If a person could lose salvation after believing on Jesus, then no one could truly claim to be a son of God NOW. Every person would have to wait and persevere to the very end of their life to be able to know if they are a son of God. And that would be salvation by works.

1 Jhn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

This verse says a Christian can KNOW they have passed from death to life. If a person could stop believing and lose salvation, then no one could know they have passed from death to life.

So, I do not agree with you.

 

[Brother Wayne]

1) It says God caused us to be born again. We did not cause ourselves to be born again and we could not cause ourselves to be somehow unborn again.

2) We have a hope of eternal life with Jesus Christ because we believe God raised Jesus from the dead and therefore will resurrect us upon Christ's return. So our hope depends on no loss of salvation.

3) Our inheritance, as a spiritual child of God is reserved in heaven for us. Thus to lose our inheritance we would have to be disowned by God, yet His promise is to never leave us.

4) Born again believers are protected, by the power of God through faith. The word "through" in the Greek is "dia" and means enter or cross a boundary, as in going into a room through a door. Thus the faith comes before the protection, not the other way around. Therefore we obtained the protection through our love and faith in Jesus, because that was the basis of being placed in Christ and born again. But does this also say our protection is sustained by our faith? Nope. Once born again, after our faith has been credited by God, the power of God protects us including our faith. So we may backslide and get side tracked into ineffective ministry, but we still get to heaven as one escaping from a fire.

1) We could not do anything to save ourselves, true, you did have to make the choice to receive Jesus as your Saviour. If you had never repented and asked Jesus to make you a new creature you could not have been saved. Thus we can likewise throw off the new creature that we have asked God to give us and return to a life of sin.

2) Yes, our inheretance is reserved for each one in heaven. And yes, he has promised that he will never leave us. However, if we return to sin and turn away from God, he must disallow us our inherenance in heaven because he is just and holy and will not allow any sin to enter heaven.

3) You have not given any reason why our protection is not sustained through faith. The definition in the Strongs uses the following terms to describe the word faith: by means of, throughout, during, by reason of. All the description that Strongs gives of the word denotes a continued action.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Doesn't this denote that faith is something that can be descontinued?
Acts 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The word erred means 'to go astray, to stray from', thus you have no basis with which to say that faith cannot stop. We are then under the protection of God while that faith is continueing.

 

[Brother Wayne]

I've already seen some refferances to eternal life here. Many try to say that we have been given eternal life and obviously something that is eternal cannot end. We do not have eternal life, we have the hope of eternal life. Look at it like this:

If I made a clock that was an eternal timepeice, could never stop working and gave it to you, you than have an eternal timepeice, but if you lose it, it continues to be an eternal timepiece, but you don't have it anymore. It does not lose it's eternal attribute.

I will post some verses later that support that one can lose salvation.

Thanks for your replies,
Wayne

 

[Winman]

I've already seen some refferances to eternal life here. Many try to say that we have been given eternal life and obviously something that is eternal cannot end. We do not have eternal life, we have the hope of eternal life. Look at it like this:

If I made a clock that was an eternal timepeice, could never stop working and gave it to you, you than have an eternal timepeice, but if you lose it, it continues to be an eternal timepiece, but you don't have it anymore. It does not lose it's eternal attribute.

I will post some verses later that support that one can lose salvation.

Thanks for your replies,
Wayne

Poor analogy, eternal life is not like owning an eternal time-piece that can be lost. It is being justified from all of one's sins and imputed righteous before God. You do not work to obtain this righteousness, and you cannot keep this righteousness by works.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

We are not considered righteous because we quit sinning, no man ever truly quits sinning. The moment we believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead we are imputed righteous by God, just as Abraham was imputed righteous when he believed God's promise. Abraham did not stop sinning, he sinned many times after the scriptures say he was imputed righteous by God.

You simply believe in works salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

BW:
Did I overlook your response to the following Scripture?

Romans 8:29, 30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where in the above Scripture are we told anything other than that those God chooses unto salvation He will call, justify, and glorify?

 

[Brother Wayne]

I believe there are many verses that SEEM to say that a person can lose salvation, but I do not believe a person who has truly trusted Christ can lose it.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here Jesus said that any person who believes on him has everlasting life (present tense) and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed (past tense) from death to life. If a person could lose salvation after trusting Christ, then this verse could not be true. If a person could lose salvation they would indeed come into condemnation after believing on Jesus.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse says that NOW we are the sons of God. If a person could lose salvation after believing on Jesus, then no one could truly claim to be a son of God NOW. Every person would have to wait and persevere to the very end of their life to be able to know if they are a son of God. And that would be salvation by works.

1 Jhn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

This verse says a Christian can KNOW they have passed from death to life. If a person could stop believing and lose salvation, then no one could know they have passed from death to life.

So, I do not agree with you.

1) In John 5:24 the word believeth is a present tense. If it would say he that has believed it would be a totally different story. There is no indication given that the person who stops believing will not come into condemnation. That is a promise only for those who are presently believing.

2) The word 'now' means at this time. Again, there is no indication that at a later time we would no longer be the sons of God through our own sin and turning from Him.

3) Again, the 'know' in this verse is present tense. I know right now that I have passed from death unto life, but I realize that if I do not continue the Christian life by faith I can now longer 'know' that in a present form.

 

[Brother Wayne]

Poor analogy, eternal life is not like owning an eternal time-piece that can be lost. It is being justified from all of one's sins and imputed righteous before God. You do not work to obtain this righteousness, and you cannot keep this righteousness by works.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

We are not considered righteous because we quit sinning, no man ever truly quits sinning. The moment we believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead we are imputed righteous by God, just as Abraham was imputed righteous when he believed God's promise. Abraham did not stop sinning, he sinned many times after the scriptures say he was imputed righteous by God.

You simply believe in works salvation.

You skipped verse 21 and 22 that clearly show that the promise was imputed to him for righteousness. What if we stop continueing to beleive (verse 24)?

I know this could sound like works salvation. We are saved through a continueing faith in the work of Jesus at Calvary, but if the faith stops salvation ceases as well. We had to reach out in faith in order to receive salvation, thus we must continue in faith in order that salvation is not withdrawn.

If you call this works...well, then I guess works must be in the Bible.

 

[annsni]

When God tells me that I have eternal life and that He has given the Spirit as a guarantee, I trust Him at His word. I do not see anything in Scripture that says that I could ever lose this promise from Him because HE has sealed it, not me.

 

[Winman]

You skipped verse 21 and 22 that clearly show that the promise was imputed to him for righteousness. What if we stop continueing to beleive (verse 24)?

I know this could sound like works salvation. We are saved through a continueing faith in the work of Jesus at Calvary, but if the faith stops salvation ceases as well. We had to reach out in faith in order to receive salvation, thus we must continue in faith in order that salvation is not withdrawn.

If you call this works...well, then I guess works must be in the Bible.

Works are always contrasted to faith in the Bible.

Faith is to depend on Jesus to save you, not our works. The moment you think you have to work to be saved, you are no longer believing.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which man boasted of his works, the publican or the Pharisee? Which man was performing good works?

Which man was justified?

 

[Brother Wayne]

Works are always contrasted to faith in the Bible.

Faith is to depend on Jesus to save you, not our works. The moment you think you have to work to be saved, you are no longer believing.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which man boasted of his works, the publican or the Pharisee? Which man was performing good works?

Which man was justified?

That's why I said I am not referring to that kind of 'works'. What if the publican who was justified later became proud and started lifting himself up as the Pharisee? Than he would no longer be justified. The publican must continue to see himself in desperate need of Gods' mercy.