Featured Is it always God's will to heal?

Probably so, like the people that get upset at thinking their salvation gets questioned.
If you know you are saved, anything anyone could possibly say could never upset you, if you know. Quite telling when the feathers get ruffled on what people really beileve lol

 

Oh?! You must mean like your last post.

 

The only solution for you and your posts is to be banned.

 

Read the book of Job carefully. Do you know who the friends of Job were?

Job's friends were:

Charismatic tormentors!!

 

I see them more as religious people without faith!

 

2 Corinthians 11:23: "Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again."
2 Corinthians 11:24: "Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one."
2 Corinthians 11:25: "Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,"
2 Corinthians 11:26: "I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers."
2 Corinthians 11:27: "I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."
2 Corinthians 11:28: "Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches."
Several chapters earlier, Paul described even more of his sufferings and afflictions:
2 Corinthians 6:4: "Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses;"
2 Corinthians 6:5: "in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger;"
2 Corinthians 6:6: "in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love;"
2 Corinthians 6:7: "in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left;"
2 Corinthians 6:8: "through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors;"
2 Corinthians 6:9: "known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed;"
2 Corinthians 6:10: "sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything."

Paul described just about every form of suffering and affliction that we could possibly think of, yet nowhere in these verses did he mention any sicknesses or diseases. Paul's "thorn" had nothing to do with sickness, but instead his "thorn" was a demon who continually harassed him with many hardships and sufferings.

 

The Charismatics have a hard time properly exegeting Scripture.
First rule of thumb: When you can't understand the passage attribute it to a demon. Right on Awaken. You have done that here. The passage says nothing about demons, but like the typical Charismatic who sees demons behind every bush and every door, every unexplainable thing is attributed to a demon. You are fitting right in. When are you going to leave the Baptists completely and go join a Charismatic church?
I fear we are just confirming you in your faith. The more you argue for it, the more you convince yourself that your self-deception is true. The passage says that Paul had an actual "thorn in the flesh," a physical malady. The "thorn" of course, was a figure of speech. It represented something, which he pretty much defines for us, as infirmity. It was an affliction which he bore most of his life, most likely the poor eyesight that he refers to elsewhere.

 

Again..you read right over it..even in scriptures.

When Paul used the terminology "thorn in the flesh," the original readers minds immediately went back to the imagery in the OT scriptures I posted earlier (Num 33; Joshua 23;Judges 2). In each case, it referred to people who were antagonistic toward God's people. This is futher biblical evidence tha Paul's thorn in the flesh was a demonic personality, a dark angel, a messenger from Satan that stirred up persecutions everywhere Paul went. He made reference to this in his letter to the Corinthians, saying, in essence, "we apostles suffer more than anybody else. The people we minister to are esteemed and blessed, but we are despised and considered the scourges of the earth..." (1 Cor. 4:9-13).

Paul was talking about hardships and persecution that he endured. This messenger worked hard to influence people wherever Paul went, to persecute him. Paul manifested the power of God in his life, but it was with a price!

Paul sought the Lord 3 times to remove this thorn in the flesh, this messenger had stirred up persecution through people. As I showed in the OT, that's what a thorn in the flesh is: persecution through people.

Persecution we will have...but that is different than sickness!

If you will recall Paul was a persecuter! Jesus told Ananias that he would suffer many things in his calling. Now he is the one being persecuted! But His Grace is sufficient for Paul and for us!

 

And they all had Strong's exhaustive Concordance to look up the word "thorn" in all those big bulky scrolls that all the OT books were written. It would have been nicer to have a laptop, but mud huts do have their limitations.

In my reading thorns usually refer to "thorns" just as bramble does.
Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

What is further evidence? That thorn means thorn and bramble means bramble? I hardly think so? You would fit in well with Origen and Augustine. Origen was the one who invented the allegorical method of interpreting the Bible, and Augustine popularized. That is what you are doing. Origen was a heretic, and Augustine, one of the founders of the RCC. Do you usually follow such men in your theology?

 

You seem to forget that I have already agreed that God heals in different ways!

He heals in many ways! I have never said it was just miraculous! He is our healer!

You sure do assume alot!

No he does not punish us with sickness...he will use our sickness to teach us! But he does not cause the sickness!
THere are three main reasons people get sick
Sin (John 5:14)/A direct attack from satan (1 Peter5:8)/Natural things (things just happen, like falling down stairs etc.).

A righteous man can still fear!
I do not think sickness is a blessing! God wants to bless his children! The Word does not teach that God want us sick.
God does not allow people to go to hell. In one sense, we could say that He allows it because of His high regard for our free will. But it's not His desire, wish, or plan. God puts road blocks in our way, inviting us to rpent and be born again, but ultimately He gives us a choice. Anyone that goes to hell has to climb over mountains of obstacles the Lord placed in their path.

Sickness is always a curse in the OT...think about that!

God healed Paul everytime! God's will is to heal!

It is still not his desire for us to be sick!

 

THey memorized scripture back then...
YOu can deny the context all you want...but it is there. Explained througout the scriptures! OT and NT!!

Again with the personal attacks! I have always been told that when someone cannot back up their beliefs in scripture they we retort to personal attacks!

Show me sickness in their life that was not healed! Death does not count...all are appointed to die!

But the "thorn" was not sickness!

YOu are assuming it was sickness! It is not there in scriptures! It is clear it was a messenger of satan!

You are contradicting yourself again..first you say we all suffer persecution..now you say I do not! No wonder I get confused on what you really believe!!

See now you are saying we all suffer persecution?? Observe the contradictions in bold and underlined. First you say we all suffer persecution..then you say we don't..I don't..then the very next statement is that we ALL suffer persecution!

I never said Paul was the ONLY ONE TO SUFFER! You add words that I do not say!

 

"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."" (John 14:9-10)
Think again about what it means... It means that when we see Jesus doing things in the Bible, those things are God's will.

"A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean." Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy." (Matthew 8:2-3)
Think about this: Was Jesus willing to heal back then? Yes! Therefore, it was God's will for people to be healed back then. But is Jesus still willing for us to be healed today? Yes! Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
He was the Healer back then, and He is still the Healer today. Jesus does the will of God the Father, so healing and health are God's will for us. Sometimes a healing might happen instantly, and sometimes you will need to exercise patience until you see the healing, and sometimes you might not receive healing at all for one reason or another.

THis is where I stand on this issue! Nothing that has been brought up on this thread has changed my view!
As I stated earlier...Jesus healed everyone who wanted healing, which shows that healing and health are God's will for everyone. There's not a single case in the New Testament where anyone who wanted divine healing did not receive it, and there's not a single case where a person was told that his sickness was for the purpose of building character in him, and there's not a single case where sickness was called a "blessing," and there's not a single case where a sick person who wanted healing was left unhealed for any reason (this includes Lazarus, because Jesus resurrected him back to life and health),and there's not a single case where a person was told that it was not God's will for him to be healed, and there's not a single case where Jesus said that sickness glorifies God (it's healing that glorifies God), and there's not a single case where Jesus said that God had put sickness on someone to punish him or to chastise him, and there's not a single case where Jesus told people to be patient in sickness, and so on.

This is where I stand...now I will leave the rest of you to debate this issue!

 

They didn't have the NT, thus the necessity of tongues, interpretation thereof, prophecy and revelatory knowledge, as well as the other sign gifts.

Can you document any of the Hebrews who had the entire OT memorized.
You have weak arguments and a lot of wishful thinking.

Because I tell you the truth it hurts??
You have been allegorizing Scripture. A thorn is a thorn. So it is in the OT.
I see no need to allegorize the majority of Scripture to get your meanings out of them. I tell you the truth. The method of allegroization came from the heretic Origen (even the RCC declared him a heretic), and popularized by Augustine. That is the camp you fall into when you follow that type of interpretation instead of taking the Bible literally as it should be.

 

Why does it have to be God's will for her to be sick? What is wrong with saying the sickness is not from God...God is the healer! We are going to get sick living in this world...our bodies will decay and die! But that was not God's will from the beginning! Man brought it (death) all on himself by sin! Sin and sickness is a part of living in this world! But God is still the healer! Yesterday, today and tomorrow!

Maybe you should have asked these things before you assumed!! I have a Bible software that has several dictionaries/commentaries/references/Greek and Hebrew. Did I go to school...NO! I pray a lot in the spirit...and the HS leads me and teaches me! Before you go crazy on me..God has taught me alot through others, but the HS is always there to guide me to all truth!

Maybe he allows us to go the medicine way because we do not believe his way! John, I do not limit God! My own pastor (that believes the same as I do) had cancer, was operated on, went through chemo..he is healed today! I am not against doctors and medicine! I am against God being the one that puts the sickness on us! My father is not that cruel! Everytime in the OT..sickness is a curse!

I will show you proof in scriptures! That I can do!

Did not say sickness. He was beaten to death, remember? He walked back into a town within 24 hour of that beating, didn't he? So who healed him of this beating?

IF you want to believe that God puts sickness on his children..go ahead! I believe good things about my Father and he wants good things for me. Do I get sick, yes! But it is not from God! It is living in a world that is fallen! A world where satan is always attacking! A world where God allows you to abuse your body...and you reap the consequences!
My Father gave His Son to die on the cross..His Spirit to help us overcome here on earth! What a price! What a gift!
My mother died of cancer! I do not tell people God gave cancer to my mother!

 

You are getting impossible to debate with! Will you go back and read the post! When you do not read the post...you confuse and misrepresent what I say.

I gave OT scriptures to show what they would know about a "thorn in the flesh"...why would Paul refer to it as a "thorn in the flesh"..He knew the OT backwards and forwards. Why didn't he just say sickness if it was a sickness? In context...and also in the OT references the "thorn in the flesh" is not referring to sickness!

You can tell the truth about the WORD without getting personal! READ the rules! Are you trying to hurt me, is that your motive?

The OT scriptures I gave show what it means...study some more!

Think about this. Would you take a few jigsaw puzzle pieces and put them together and then claim that you can see the full picture with just those few pieces? Of course not! In order to see the full picture, you need to properly fit together all of the puzzle pieces. In the same way, if we're studying a doctrine (such as thorn in the flesh or healling) but we only look at a few passages of Scripture, then we're not seeing the full picture of that doctrine. This means that our views about that doctrine might be totally wrong!

I would say I am glad that makes you happy...but it really is sad what you said you are laughing at!
You still did not or can not give me a scripture of an example of what you claim. Ony your opionion!

You are getting there!

Yes! the scriptures are clear! Your interpretations are not!

Here we go with tongues again! Can you just get passed that! You seem to get off topic on every thread by bringing up tongues...WE ARE DISCUSSING PERSECUTIONS!
Go back and read your post! You contradict yourself just like I pointed out!

Here we go with a personal agenda!
I will not answer anymore post with your personal agenda toward me! STICK TO SCRIPTURES!

 

I do stick to the Scriptures. If you take it personally then so be it.
Here are the facts.

First of all you don't read any of the links and the information of the post and remain ignorant of what goes on in this world, and thus don't know what persecution is. Let me describe it for you.

A 14 year old Christian girl, illiterate, having Down's syndrome, with an intellectual level of an eleven year old was accused under the Blasphemy Law of Pakistan of Blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammed. This carries a life time sentence or the death penalty.

The Muslims became so enraged that a mob of 5,000 angry Muslims, led by a fanatical Muslim cleric attacked a Christian village (where she came from) set homes on fire, destroyed churches, bibles, and ransacked the village.

After some time, when guilty consciences could no longer keep quiet, it came to be known that the poor girl had been framed. It was the Muslim cleric himself that had burned pages of the Koran and had put them in the garbage of the girl and then accused her of Blasphemy.

What happens. The Muslim cleric is taken to jail, but gets out free on bail. If it were not for the intervention of other nations (as this story garnered international attention), this girl would have been killed anyway. The emotions were too high for even an innocent person to go free. She was taken away by helicopter to an undisclosed location where she still fears for her life. If they find her they will kill her though she has done nothing wrong. She is 14, illiterate, and has Down's syndrome. How could she have possibly been guilty of the crime that she was accused of?

That is suffering for Christ's sake. That is what Christians suffer.
Have you been persecuted? Do you know what it means to be persecuted for Christ's sake. The Bible gives us some idea in Acts 8:1-3.

But here is your idea, when the Bible says:
All who live godly will suffer in Christ Jesus.

The Charismatics believe that the godly are those that speak in tongues. Paul maintains that this is the least important of all the gifts and in some cases it was being used in a carnal way. He maintains that five words in his own language which people could understand were better than 10,000 words in tongues where people could not understand. It was carnal. It was not a mark of spirituality.

The mark of a godly Christian was one would suffer for Christ. I dedicated an entire post full of Scripture for just that purpose, linking salvation to suffering.

The last command of Christ is the Great Commission. and therefore, the most important command that Christ gave.
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
You don't have to go overseas to do that. You live in Arkansas.
You don't have to go very far to reach Mexico. Go and preach there. If you do so with any amount of zeal, you will suffer persecution. There are mission fields all around you. Have you gone to any of the reservations, and tried to reach the native Americans for Christ. That is another mission field. Do you live in a large city that has a "red light" zone as they are referred to; the place where the prostitutes, the drug addicts, the alcoholics, and the homeless are? Do you have a ministry there? There are many mission fields. Go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do; do it with all thy might.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

The post underlined I do not agree with and have made several post showing where I stand on it!
Nowhere in any of my post have I said that those that speak in tongues are more godly!

Again, your debates with me have become too personal! I will debate scriptures but not personal attacks! If you want to ask me if I believe something that is one thing...but to put up with you posting what I believe when I never said that is another!