Is "Forsaking the assembling of ourselves....

[ktn4eg]

What the last few posters said!!!!!! :thumbs::tear::tear:

 

[InTheLight]

Or has God given instuctions as to who and what the church is...

Then those who gladly received his word were baptized

why we are to assemble

continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

...when we are to assemble.....

So continuing daily with one accord in the temple

what we are to do...or not do, when we assemble???

continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.


So if we don't meet every day to break bread and pray are we in sin?

 

[12strings]

I agree that permenantly forsaking the assembly of ourselves together is definitly a sin...those have in effect abandoned God's people.

Now for missing a Sunday service...the heart is what will determine if it is a sin.

If a Doctor is performing emergency surgury on Sunday morning instead of attending church, is he sinning?

If a mother stays home with a sick child, is she sinning?

If a families car breaks down on their 30 minute drive to church, are they sinning?

Even...if a family is driving on a Sunday to a week of vacation and so miss the service, are they sinning...even if they believe that vacation will be a beneficial spiritual rest for them?

If a man has a shift job that requires him to work EVERY Sunday or be fired...is he sinning if he instead attends a Saturday Evening Service? What if his church has no Saturday evening service, but he make every effort to attend the other bible-studies throughout the week?

However, If I wake up and it's going to be a beautiful day, and I decide I would rather play golf than go to church...there is probably some sinful reason why...I think very few people could honestly say that they believe God would be more pleased with them playing golf on Sunday than worshiping Him with other believers.

 

[MorseOp]

If you are providentially hindered from attending worship then there is no sin. If you have the ability to attend worship, and are not providentially hindered, then you are committing an act of selfishness. That is sin. God has commanded one day in seven to be given over to Him in corporate worship. This is a creation ordinance (Genesis 2:3).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Lets take a look:


verse 26 starts with the word ....for......if we sin.....wilfully


looks as if not assembling was being called sin.

failing to keep the one day in seven in the OT was to profane the day.

56 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.




If you are not providentially hindered...why would a believer not desire to gather with the assembled local body of believers???

Define believers.

 

[ktn4eg]

Define believers.

Better yet, I'd like a very clear-cut, precise, "no-doubt-about-it," NT reference(s)where the HS tells us what:

1) EXACTLY IS and IS NOT a "providential hindrance."

2) PRECISELY is the difference between"Judging" another person's acts, deeds, attitude and "inspecting" that believer's "fruit."

3) Can / SHOULD a local church take any kind of "disciplinary" action(s) against a member who refuses to repent of what the local church determines to be "conduct unbecoming of a born-again, "blood bought "Child of God" (ref. Matthew 18:15ff)?

4) If a local church DOES what I've asked in 3), what exactly should be the "penalty(-ies)" that this local church should "inflict" on this unrepentant member? EX: Should that member be removed from any/all church positions such as PA/sound system operator, or Children's/Junior church teacher/piano player/assistant, etc., even if (by his/her removal) that would place the remaining people in "a real bind" to continue doing whatever aspect of that local church's ministry that this unrepentant member had volunteered to do?

4) What is your HO about a local church not only taking away that unrepentant member's "right" to vote on any/all church business matters, but even forbidding that unrepentant members "right" to participate in that local church's observance of the Lord's Supper?

Comments? Thoughts?

 

[12strings]

I suspect that you will not get the "no-doubt-about-it" answers you want from anyone...but I'll take a stab....

Better yet, I'd like a very clear-cut, precise, "no-doubt-about-it," NT reference(s)where the HS tells us what:

1) EXACTLY IS and IS NOT a "providential hindrance."

-The words are not in scripture. What we have is a few passages from which to draw principles...one is the passage in the OP about forsaking the assembly...Another is Jesus' disciples picking grain in Luke 6:1-4, Mark 2... Jesus says "The Sabbath was made for the man, not man for the sabbath."
-There is also scriptures throughout the NT that speak of the importance of living the Christian life with other believers...HOWEVER, there is NOT a command to attend a Sunday morning worship service! The NT believers met "on the first day of the week" ...but also whenever they could, sometimes daily. There did not seem to be any NT reference to people "Missing" a meeting...rather the emphasis of warning was on those who "fall away" or abandon the church completely.

2) PRECISELY is the difference between"Judging" another person's acts, deeds, attitude and "inspecting" that believer's "fruit."

-We are not actually taught never to judge...but rather to judge ourselves first, get the log out of our own eye...(Matt. 7)...then we will be more prepared to judge rightly and help our brethren...In all sin, we are to approach people with humility, care, gentleness (2 Tim. 2:25) with a goal of restoration (Gal. 6:1). There Is a NT place for correction, but also for liberty when there is not a clear sin to deal with.

3) Can / SHOULD a local church take any kind of "disciplinary" action(s) against a member who refuses to repent of what the local church determines to be "conduct unbecoming of a born-again, "blood bought "Child of God" (ref. Matthew 18:15ff)?

-Taking Gal. 6, Matt. 18, and 1 Cor. 5 together...I believe, along with most biblical scholars, that there IS a place for church discipline...I believe that Matt. 18 & Gal. 6 give what should be the 1st 2 steps in church discipline: Go to a brother alone, then with another trusted brother...in an effort not to condemn, but restore...THIS SHOULD BE HAPPENING ALL THE TIME! If it was, it would prevent most of the need for step 3: take it to the church.
-The specifics in these 3 pasages are: Sexual immorality, sin that is against someone else, and then just general "sin" in Galatians.
-It would seem if an individual, whether a pastor or not, notices a sin that needs to be dealt with, they should go to that person alone, not to the church first...
-However, Matt 18 & 1 Cor. do seem to leave open the possibility of church action should the person not repent.

4) If a local church DOES what I've asked in 3), what exactly should be the "penalty(-ies)" that this local church should "inflict" on this unrepentant member? EX: Should that member be removed from any/all church positions such as PA/sound system operator, or Children's/Junior church teacher/piano player/assistant, etc., even if (by his/her removal) that would place the remaining people in "a real bind" to continue doing whatever aspect of that local church's ministry that this unrepentant member had volunteered to do?

4) What is your HO about a local church not only taking away that unrepentant member's "right" to vote on any/all church business matters, but even forbidding that unrepentant members "right" to participate in that local church's observance of the Lord's Supper?

[/QUOTE]

-These must be handled on a case by case basis...and it would depend on the sin, the publicity of the sin, and the publicity of the person's service...because like it or not, that person IS representing the church in some of these roles...
-In scripture, the Ultimate consequence for an unrepentant sinner would be exclusion from the church. I do believe this would include not being able to vote, and advising them not to take communion (in most churches, they would probably not refuse to serve it, but rather warn the person about taking it in an inappropriate manner.
-HOWEVER, Short of that, it may be seen as necessary to limit their leadership/service roles for a time while working through a certain issue...These all require wisdom and level-headed leadership... (Removing a singer from public ministry if he/she was caught in adultery...removing a 3rd grade ss teacher who was caught with child p-ography...) These would all be case of as the issue was being worked through...it seems that if the person is truly, completly, stubornly unrepentant, then a separation would be the biblical thing to do (treat like an unbeliever: Ie, love them, tell the Gospel, invite to continue attending worship services...but without the benifits of church membership).


A FEW FINAL THOUGHTS:
1. In most cases, when a person is involved in prolonged, willing sin...they tend to stop coming to church, either immediatly upon being caught, or gradually as they try to hide and withdraw...the abandonment of church rarely happens in a vacuum, it often is related to some private issue.

2. If, in all these questions, you are getting at the idea of church discipline in cases of occasionally missing church for no good reason...but usually attending...I think there should probalby be some individual correction if it seems to be a pattern (always missing when certain sports events are on TV, for example...but maybe some degree of liberty as well, since we usually do not know why people miss church...and It is not my business to get to the bottom of why Chris missed church 2 months ago...That would seem like being too nit-picky to me.

 

[ktn4eg]

Thanks 12strings for your post.

I pretty much agree with what you posted.

OTOH, a question that still occasionally haunts me is that of, "To what extent is the spouse of that unrepentant believer supposed to do in order to be in COMPLETE and 100% OBEDIENCE with such passage(s) as those that instruct this person to, basically 'NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH' such an unrepentant person, or to treat that person as an unbeliever, or not to have 'ANY FELLOWSHIP', etc. with such a person as this unrepentant church member?

Is the spouse of such an unrepentant church member supposed to very literally, completely, 100% somehow live a life in total separation from his/her unrepentant spouse??

If so, what exactly IS that spouse responsible to do and/or NOT do??

 

[12strings]

Thanks 12strings for your post.

I pretty much agree with what you posted.

OTOH, a question that still occasionally haunts me is that of, "To what extent is the spouse of that unrepentant believer supposed to do in order to be in COMPLETE and 100% OBEDIENCE with such passage(s) as those that instruct this person to, basically 'NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH' such an unrepentant person, or to treat that person as an unbeliever, or not to have 'ANY FELLOWSHIP', etc. with such a person as this unrepentant church member?

Is the spouse of such an unrepentant church member supposed to very literally, completely, 100% somehow live a life in total separation from his/her unrepentant spouse??

If so, what exactly IS that spouse responsible to do and/or NOT do??

1. Again, I think 1 Corinthians in helpful (I'm currently "Pro 1 Corinthians"...as I am currently teaching through it with both Teenagers & Senior adults):
-1 Cor. 7:12-16, Paul tells people married to unbelievers not to leave them, but to remain married...but if that person leaves, then they can't control that...but their witness in remaining faithful may lead the person to repentance. Now, Amish and Menonite communities do in fact practice a "ban" that separates a spouse from a Pagan husband...but I believe they are in clear violation of this passage.

2. I would not phrase it the way you have (underlined above) as an "unrepentant church member." If it has reached the point where the church has decided on separation, it would mean the person is no longer a church member.

3. Think of the phrase "treat as an unbeliever". What does that mean? How did Jesus treat unbelievers? He reached out to them and cared for them. preached God's message of repentance to them.

4. The "have nothing to do with them" parts are difficult, but in light of the above I would probably put it this way: We are called to love all people, treat all people with kindness. There will be certain fellowship functions in which we will no longer treat that person as a Believer, or a church member...So we would not invite them to a church business meeting, or to go do evangelism with us...beyond that, I think it is open to interpretation...I do NOT believe that it gives us license to remove them from our lives so that we have no more personal ministry to them...or to treat the person with distain, or a "I can't believe how bad a person you are" attitude.

5. I'll also say some people think this is a fast process...I think it should be a slow process that gives the person every opportunity to change and repent before excommunication (not a nice word, but that's what it is).

(btw, I speak from experience of being on staff at at church for the past 5 years that has had several cases of church discipline come up...our pastor has taken a slow approach, and when there is no repentance, it is generally the case that the person leaves of their own accord due to embarrassment or simply wanting to start fresh in a new church...Not the best for their souls in my opinion, but it is what generally happens. We have removed several people from membership, based primarily on non-attendance. The 1-2 public scandal cases we have had ended as I just stated, the people just stopped coming once their situation was made public (not by the pastors or the church, by the way...one by the newspaper...the other because you can't leave your wife without people noticing)...We sometimes wonder if we are being too soft, but the scriptures never say to kick someone out as soon as a big sin is discovered...but to attempt to restore them.)

 

[ktn4eg]

At the local church where I belong (N.B. I am not a preacher [so far in my 46.33 yrs as a born-again "Child of The King] much less a pastor/elder/whatever) Lighthouse Christian Fellowship ( www.lighthouseministries.org ), we actually had, "....to deliver such an one unto Satan...." (1 Cor. 5:5) our former youth and student 'elder' (who, BTW, is/was the SIL of our "Missions" elder & the father to two very young sons).

This man claimed to have "been led by the HS' to abandon his young medically-dependent wife (She was maybe in her late 20's at the time.) and two young sons to 'lead in some other direction of the HS's calling.'"

This action was done not speedily at all, but only after many, many visits by (among others) his own parents, siblings, many of our elders besides his FIL, + several of our youth who looked up to him & had earlier sought his advice/counsel on many matters of the heart.

It was a very sad, sad "family matter" that still haunts not only many of our attendees (some of them are STILL unsaved) to this day, but also many of our own "covenant members."

This occurred some three years ago, and as best I can recall, this man has yet to "see" the damage he's done to his wife and two sons, but to whatever "testimony" he left many of the youth of LCF.

I say this in all humility and with tears rolling down my cheeks.

Why?

But for God's grace, I could have done perhaps a similar thing (NOT leaving my wife/children [God's never called this almost 67 YO male to marry, much less be the father to any children.], but maybe some other just as (if not MORE) damaging thing not only to me, but also to the One Who died, was buried, bodily resurrected, and coming again for this hopelessly lost and totally incapable of EVER doing a single thing that would prevent me from suffering my "thrice-Holy" Creator and God's very justifiable wrath throughout eternity!!

Thank You, Jesus, for what You did, are doing right now, and will continue to do for this unrightous and unworthy sinner!!!!

 

[JimmyH]

I was thinking of this topic in relation to A.W. Pink. The great Christian author of Studies in the Scriptures, from which many individual volumes have been issued long since his death. He gave up preaching and attendance at church because of differences in doctrinal matters. He, with his wife's assistance, published a monthly pamphlet that is filled with wonderful treatises on the Word of God.

I have pondered how he could have kept his spiritual batteries charged without the fellowship of the body of Christ. I expect his ministry would have been different if he had not devoted himself to his writing at the expense of church attendance but we'll never know.

I personally became saved in September of 1986 at the age of 37. I attended an Assemblies Of God church for a time, was baptized there, but was uncomfortable with the charismatic worship/display, so i found a Baptist church and called it home.

I wish I could say that I stayed within the body for the ensuing years but I did forsake the gathering together and did not attend church for over 20 years. Led by the spirit I began attending a year ago this past October.

I have been baptized in the Baptist church of which I am now an active member, and I attend every Sunday and Wednesday. I'm posting to say that if anyone is thinking of 'going out from among us' don't do it. Being a fruitful branch on the vine is more possible in the body than out of it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was thinking of this topic in relation to A.W. Pink. The great Christian author of Studies in the Scriptures, from which many individual volumes have been issued long since his death. He gave up preaching and attendance at church because of differences in doctrinal matters. He, with his wife's assistance, published a monthly pamphlet that is filled with wonderful treatises on the Word of God.

I have pondered how he could have kept his spiritual batteries charged without the fellowship of the body of Christ. I expect his ministry would have been different if he had not devoted himself to his writing at the expense of church attendance but we'll never know.

I personally became saved in September of 1986 at the age of 37. I attended an Assemblies Of God church for a time, was baptized there, but was uncomfortable with the charismatic worship/display, so i found a Baptist church and called it home.

I wish I could say that I stayed within the body for the ensuing years but I did forsake the gathering together and did not attend church for over 20 years. Led by the spirit I began attending a year ago this past October.

I have been baptized in the Baptist church of which I am now an active member, and I attend every Sunday and Wednesday. I'm posting to say that if anyone is thinking of 'going out from among us' don't do it. Being a fruitful branch on the vine is more possible in the body than out of it.

Out of curiosity, how far is your church from your home?

 

[JimmyH]

Out of curiosity, how far is your church from your home?

Probably about a mile. It is an SBC affiliated church.

 

[Alive in Christ]

This was posted...

Agree 100%. Never attending church again is something we are not to do. Doesn't say it is a sin. Therefore, not going on one particular Sunday is not a sin.

Absolutly.

If you ever encounter a fundamentalist legalist who is always stressing "You must be here all the time, or you are in sin!......Flee that place like the plague.

 

[ktn4eg]

This was posted...



Absolutly.

If you ever encounter a fundamentalist legalist who is always stressing "You must be here all the time, or you are in sin!......Flee that place like the plague.

I was in a situation something like that once: If one member chose to miss (as opposed to what that church defined as a "providential hindrance," e.g., being sick or some other situation that couldn't possibly be handled at some other time) for three consequetive, regularly scheduled meetings (this could mean as little as within one week's time span [Sunday AM service + Sunday PM service + mid week service = 3 consequetive servives!!] you were AUTOMATICALLY placed into the "Inactive member" category.

Some of the "penalities" for being an "inactive member" of that church included:
1. Forfeiture of the right to vote in a business meeting
2. That church refusing to grant that person a "church letter" to some other church because if that person was an "inactive" member, then he/she was quilty of a "willful sin"
and
3. Withholding from any "inactive member" the right to participate in that church's observation of the Lord's Supper. Why? Because that "inactive" was obviously "living in open, unrepentant" SIN!!

 

[Alive in Christ]

I was in a situation something like that once: If one member chose to miss (as opposed to what that church defined as a "providential hindrance," e.g., being sick or some other situation that couldn't possibly be handled at some other time) for three consequetive, regularly scheduled meetings (this could mean as little as within one week's time span [Sunday AM service + Sunday PM service + mid week service = 3 consequetive servives!!] you were AUTOMATICALLY placed into the "Inactive member" category.

Some of the "penalities" for being an "inactive member" of that church included:
1. Forfeiture of the right to vote in a business meeting
2. That church refusing to grant that person a "church letter" to some other church because if that person was an "inactive" member, then he/she was quilty of a "willful sin"
and
3. Withholding from any "inactive member" the right to participate in that church's observation of the Lord's Supper. Why? Because that "inactive" was obviously "living in open, unrepentant" SIN!!

May Almighty God have mercy on those responsible for such phraseeacal legalism.

 

[Tom Butler]

I've been thinking about ktn4eg's post #35. It seems a little harsh to invoke church discipline after three consecutive absences.

I think you ought to wait until six straight absences, then drop the hammer.

Further, I think you ought to extend the deadline by two weeks each time they send along their tithes and offerings, even if they don't attend. In other words, they can buy some extra time.

Although the automatic sanctions are personally appealing, I also concerned that they may give rises to accusations of legalism, and we certainly don't want that.

We should wait until the preacher has met (or contacted) the absentees to determine the circumstances of his absences. THEN, we drop the hammer. Unless he sends his offering first.

 

[MorseOp]

I've been thinking about ktn4eg's post #35. It seems a little harsh to invoke church discipline after three consecutive absences.

I think you ought to wait until six straight absences, then drop the hammer.

Further, I think you ought to extend the deadline by two weeks each time they send along their tithes and offerings, even if they don't attend. In other words, they can buy some extra time.

Although the automatic sanctions are personally appealing, I also concerned that they may give rises to accusations of legalism, and we certainly don't want that.

We should wait until the preacher has met (or contacted) the absentees to determine the circumstances of his absences. THEN, we drop the hammer. Unless he sends his offering first.

Tom, I think there is a misunderstanding of what qualifies as church discipline. Approaching a brother who may have sinned on a one-on-one basis qualifies as church discipline. The same for a Christian who is making a habit of missing church. Approaching them on the matter is church discipline. Not all church discipline gets to the point where it is presented before the church.

 

[MB]

....together as the manner of some is...." (Hebrews 10:25) a DEFINITE "willful sin" as the writer of Hebrews goes on to talk about in Hebrews 10:26-30??

Most all of the commentaries/articles/whatever that I've read want to put a "distinction" between what the writer of Hebrews talks about in, say, Hebrews 10-23-26, and that which the writer of Hebrews talks about in Hebrews 10:26-30.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

With so many denominations running back to the Roman Church I don't see how coming out of a Church would be a sin.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

We are told to come out in the verse above. Not only this the passage in Hebrews is not saying that it is sin to not attend church regularly. When Hebrews was written many lived in the country and it would have been rather cumbersome to travel so far to church in just one day. Not to mention Hebrews is called so because it was writen to Hebrews.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

I've been thinking about ktn4eg's post #35. It seems a little harsh to invoke church discipline after three consecutive absences.

I think you ought to wait until six straight absences, then drop the hammer.

Further, I think you ought to extend the deadline by two weeks each time they send along their tithes and offerings, even if they don't attend. In other words, they can buy some extra time.

Although the automatic sanctions are personally appealing, I also concerned that they may give rises to accusations of legalism, and we certainly don't want that.

We should wait until the preacher has met (or contacted) the absentees to determine the circumstances of his absences. THEN, we drop the hammer. Unless he sends his offering first.

I hope everybody understands that what I wrote is tongue-in-cheek.