A Secret Rapture? How Can It Be?

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Folks...this thread is primarily for those of us Baptists who DO believe in the coming Rapture or "catching away" of the Church (hopefully very soon). It is NOT for arguing about whether or not there WILL BE a rapture. To those of our dear brothers and sisters who don't believe in it...please...humor us... let us discuss this in peace. However, if you have something relevant or an opinion that is non-divisive about this topic...go ahead and weigh in.
My personal convictions and beliefs about a Pre-trib,end-time Rapture of the church are based primarily on 1 Cor.15:51-55, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 2 Thes.2:3-12 and the fact that the Church, as a body, is neither present nor mentioned any further in the book of Revelation after Chapter 3 and not again until Chapter 19:11 and following.
Now....I have heard many times people refer to a "secret" rapture. My question for rapture believers is...How could any event as profound as the catching away of untold millions of pre-deceased believers and THEN all those still-living believers ever be done in "secret". The dead ones maybe...but the living ones? Just them instantly ("in the twinkling of an eye") vanishing in many cases right before unsaved peoples eyes would have to cause widespread panic. How could the vanishing from and ultimate destruction of planes, trains, ships, cars, trucks etc. ever be kept "secret" form a watching world that is already in a constant state of media "saturation". I personally contend that the Rapture will be no secret. Not possible. I do believe that the Bible teaches that those left behind in that time would believe strong delusion and a lie (2 Thes.2:11-12). I believe it is no stretch of the imagination that the lost of that time have been having their minds prepared for that day with all the talk and emphasis on science fiction, ufo's, aliens and alien abduction and this pure fantasy that the world has embraced called evolution. The special effects creators of our day in what I'll call "Hellywood" have become so skilled at their craft that they can literally make nearly anything LOOK and APPEAR believable. Millions of people disappearing worldwide all at once...NO PROBLEM....!

The world is being prepared for the "strong delusion" that the anti-Christ will use to usher in his short but ugly seven year "reign". He will have an answer that will satisfy most of those who remain.

Secret??? I don't think so....how about ya'll???:thumbs:

Bro.Gregraying:

 

[timf]

My question for rapture believers is...How could any event as profound as the catching away of untold millions of pre-deceased believers and THEN all those still-living believers ever be done in "secret".

I have noticed a recent trend to add the word "secret" to the word rapture to make it pejorative.

There are several things that could make such an occurrence less noticeable.

1. It could occur at the same time 1.25 billion people die. (Rev 6:8)

2. The number of people who are really Christian could be a lot smaller than we think. Jesus asked that when the Son of man returned if He would find faith on the earth.

3. It could be explained away perhaps as that when the anti-Christ appears and may be heralded as both the Messiah and the 12th Iman bringing peace to the Mid East that those who disappeared were taken by him to serve him.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Or it could be secret like the Gospel is a secret. Not hidden in the normal sense, just not known or understood.

 

[Van]

I think the idea of a secret rapture is that we will not see it coming, we will be caught unaware.

Now how about those being raptured being engaged in activities that should they be taken, calamity would ensue? Could God not arrange for them not be be so engaged. A little while before, they experience the on-set of say a head-ache such that someone else must "fly the plane or perform the surgery.

But, yes, the idea does present problems. What about all those families with believing parents, but have children below the age of accountability, such as in the womb?

As far as the timing of this catching away event, it appears to happen early in the Great Tribulation, i.e. before mid-trib folks think.

 

[abcgrad94]

Bro. Greg, I agree with you.

I don't see how the rapture could possibly be kept "secret" unless this refers to Satan trying to keep it a secret by sending the delusion.

 

[mont974x4]

Or it could be secret like the Gospel is a secret. Not hidden in the normal sense, just not known or understood.

I think that's an interesting idea. It is possible that God can confuse people, or as has been pointed out earlier...send a great delusion. Whatever His plan it will have to be His acting in it because there are enough unbelievers that have heard of the rapture. Apart from God working I would say it its a statistical impossibility that no one would see the sudden and simultaneous disappearance of so many people around the world and not connect it to the rapture.


We already know it will be sudden and unexpected. Scripture tells us that.

I guess I don't really see any reason to add "secret" to it when we discuss it.

 

[InTheLight]

The world is being prepared for the "strong delusion" that the anti-Christ will use to usher in his short but ugly seven year "reign". He will have an answer that will satisfy most of those who remain.

How about this?

Dateline Washington D.C.
The world's top social scientists are grappling with an answer as to why millions of people, mostly in North America and Europe, suddenly vanished. A common thread seems to be that they were all professing Christians. Some theologians that were consulted have used the phrase "fundamentalist", describing them as believing the Bible to be the very words of God and other archaic beliefs like marriage only between and a man and a woman, anti-abortion, anti-evolution, etc.

"I think it's possible that God was sickened by these people acting as a brake on the progress of Humankind to a better, higher plane of educated reason and enlightenment", opined Jeffrey Waltzer PhD, "and perhaps supernaturally caused them to wink out of existence. Dust to dust, if l could borrow a phrase of theirs. Now that we are free of these narrow minded hate-filled bigots we can go about our destiny of tapping into our own inner-deities and finally achieve the greatest good for Humankind. I suspect if we all pull together in one unified push we can solve all our problems such as hunger, economic disparities, elimination of war. Who know? We might even be able to save Mother Earth itself!"

 

[OldRegular]

Folks...this thread is primarily for those of us Baptists who DO believe in the coming Rapture or "catching away" of the Church (hopefully very soon). It is NOT for arguing about whether or not there WILL BE a rapture. To those of our dear brothers and sisters who don't believe in it...please...humor us... let us discuss this in peace. However, if you have something relevant or an opinion that is non-divisive about this topic...go ahead and weigh in.

My personal convictions and beliefs about a Pre-trib,end-time Rapture of the church are based primarily on 1 Cor.15:51-55, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 2 Thes.2:3-12 and the fact that the Church, as a body, is neither present nor mentioned any further in the book of Revelation after Chapter 3 and not again until Chapter 19:11 and following.

The following is some information I prepared some months ago in teaching the Book of Revelation:

There is a common argument given for the pretribulation rapture of the Church that I believe is worth discussing at this time. The argument is made that because the words church or churches do not appear after the completion of the third chapter of the Revelation, the Church cannot be present during the events described in the succeeding chapters. The word churches is used eleven times in Chapters 1-3, the word church is used seven times in these same chapters. The word church or churches does not appear again until Chapter 22, Verse 16. However, the term saints is used in Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9. The term redeemed is used in Revelation 5:9 and 14:3, 4. Both of these terms are characteristic of the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ when found elsewhere in the New Testament . The appearance of the churches again in Chapter 22, Verse 16 and the succeeding verse is interesting and informative.

Revelation 22:16,17, KJV
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Notice two things,

1. Jesus sent His angel to testify of these things in the churches, and
2. The Spirit and the Bride, the Church, give the invitation to come and take of the water of life freely.

These are strange statements to make if the Church is inconsequential during much of the period covered in Revelation; is gone during the tribulation period, and Jesus Christ rules with a ‘rod of iron’ during the millennium.

Now we examine the appearance of the words Israel or Jew in the Book of Revelation. The word Israel appears three times in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2, 7, and 21; the word Jews appears only twice, Chapters 2 and 3, and there the reference is to false Jews. So we see that a reference to Israel appears only once during that part of the Book that is presumed to represent ‘the seven year tribulation’ and ‘Jacob’s time of trouble’. The first time the word Israel is used [2:14] the reference is to the false prophet Balaam and his role in the seduction of Israel enroute to the promise land. In Chapter 7 the name Israel is used in the discussion of the servants of God who are sealed. The next occasion [21:12] the name is used in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Again, Israel is referred to only one time, and no reference is made to the Jews, during that period in which it is claimed that the Church is absent. Strange indeed is the absence of the words Jew or Israel in the 16 chapters of Revelation written specifically, according to dispensational theology, for them while in the remainder of the New Testament the words Jew or Jews occur 188 times and the words Israel or Israelite occur 73 times.

It is interesting to note that there are other books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews.

To show that the absence or presence of a word is not decisive consider the Book of Esther in the Old Testament. The editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes: The name of God does not appear in the book, while a heathen king is referred to over 150 times. There is no allusion to prayer or spiritual service of any kind with the possible exception of fasting. Does this absence of reference to God mean that He was absent or that the book of Esther should not be in the Canon of Scripture? Obviously not. The book of Esther was written to show God’s watch care over His Covenant people through whom He would bring the Saviour into the world.

In conclusion, there are books in the New Testament in which the words church or churches are not mentioned. Therefore, the absence of the word church in Chapters 4-19 of the book of Revelation is scant justification to claim that the Church is absent during the period covered by these chapters. However, I believe the best argument against a pretribulation “Rapture” is contained in the proper interpretation of John 5:28,29

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Interesting....

I have noticed a recent trend to add the word "secret" to the word rapture to make it pejorative.

There are several things that could make such an occurrence less noticeable.

1. It could occur at the same time 1.25 billion people die. (Rev 6:8)

2. The number of people who are really Christian could be a lot smaller than we think. Jesus asked that when the Son of man returned if He would find faith on the earth.

3. It could be explained away perhaps as that when the anti-Christ appears and may be heralded as both the Messiah and the 12th Iman bringing peace to the Mid East that those who disappeared were taken by him to serve him.

Tim...thank you...those were all good and interesting points that were both reasonable and worthy of consideration.:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Also good...

Or it could be secret like the Gospel is a secret. Not hidden in the normal sense, just not known or understood.

Good point Mex....we all know that "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God....."(1 Cor.2:14)..so yes... this may be another of those things that is somehow (and God knows how...amen?) hidden from the unregenerate. :thumbsup:

Speculative yes...but reasonable.

Bro.Greg

 

[Revmitchell]

Folks...this thread is primarily for those of us Baptists who DO believe in the coming Rapture or "catching away" of the Church (hopefully very soon). It is NOT for arguing about whether or not there WILL BE a rapture. To those of our dear brothers and sisters who don't believe in it...please...humor us... let us discuss this in peace. However, if you have something relevant or an opinion that is non-divisive about this topic...go ahead and weigh in.
My personal convictions and beliefs about a Pre-trib,end-time Rapture of the church are based primarily on 1 Cor.15:51-55, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 2 Thes.2:3-12 and the fact that the Church, as a body, is neither present nor mentioned any further in the book of Revelation after Chapter 3 and not again until Chapter 19:11 and following.
Now....I have heard many times people refer to a "secret" rapture. My question for rapture believers is...How could any event as profound as the catching away of untold millions of pre-deceased believers and THEN all those still-living believers ever be done in "secret". The dead ones maybe...but the living ones? Just them instantly ("in the twinkling of an eye") vanishing in many cases right before unsaved peoples eyes would have to cause widespread panic. How could the vanishing from and ultimate destruction of planes, trains, ships, cars, trucks etc. ever be kept "secret" form a watching world that is already in a constant state of media "saturation". I personally contend that the Rapture will be no secret. Not possible. I do believe that the Bible teaches that those left behind in that time would believe strong delusion and a lie (2 Thes.2:11-12). I believe it is no stretch of the imagination that the lost of that time have been having their minds prepared for that day with all the talk and emphasis on science fiction, ufo's, aliens and alien abduction and this pure fantasy that the world has embraced called evolution. The special effects creators of our day in what I'll call "Hellywood" have become so skilled at their craft that they can literally make nearly anything LOOK and APPEAR believable. Millions of people disappearing worldwide all at once...NO PROBLEM....!

The world is being prepared for the "strong delusion" that the anti-Christ will use to usher in his short but ugly seven year "reign". He will have an answer that will satisfy most of those who remain.

Secret??? I don't think so....how about ya'll???:thumbs:

Bro.Gregraying:

It is secret because God has not given some the grace to understand it. We shall pray for them.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Wow!!

How about this?

Dateline Washington D.C.
The world's top social scientists are grappling with an answer as to why millions of people, mostly in North America and Europe, suddenly vanished. A common thread seems to be that they were all professing Christians. Some theologians that were consulted have used the phrase "fundamentalist", describing them as believing the Bible to be the very words of God and other archaic beliefs like marriage only between and a man and a woman, anti-abortion, anti-evolution, etc.

"I think it's possible that God was sickened by these people acting as a brake on the progress of Humankind to a better, higher plane of educated reason and enlightenment", opined Jeffrey Waltzer PhD, "and perhaps supernaturally caused them to wink out of existence. Dust to dust, if l could borrow a phrase of theirs. Now that we are free of these narrow minded hate-filled bigots we can go about our destiny of tapping into our own inner-deities and finally achieve the greatest good for Humankind. I suspect if we all pull together in one unified push we can solve all our problems such as hunger, economic disparities, elimination of war. Who know? We might even be able to save Mother Earth itself!"

I'm impressed ITL....you may want to contact LaHaye/Jenkins or one of the movie studios! They might want to employ you as a "ghost" writer or script writer! That was VERY good...had an aire of believability to it!:laugh:

Bro.Greg

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Move along...nothing to see here.....

The following is some information I prepared some months ago in teaching the Book of Revelation:

OR...No Thank You! :tonofbricks:

Bro.Greg

 

[OldRegular]

OR...No Thank You! :tonofbricks:

Bro.Greg

There are none so blind as those who will not see the truth!

There is not a single verse of Scripture that teaches a pre-trib snatching of the Church from the earth. Jesus Christ tells us that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, neither can dispensationalists!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Sad

There are none so blind as those who will not see the truth!

There is not a single verse of Scripture that teaches a pre-trib snatching of the Church from the earth. Jesus Christ tells us that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, neither can dispensationalists!

OR...I am sad that you can't honor my request in the OP concerning this thread and the subject of it. From this point forward I will simply ignore any responses from you in it. My advise...start your own thread. Since I disagree completely with you on this subject, I PROMISE that I won't spam your thread and post in it.

For the rest of you who have or may respond, I appreciate your responses. I'm not FORCING my convictions about this subject on anyone but I am not ashamed of them or afraid to share them either. Convictions and beliefs are the purview of the Holy Spirit. I pray we are all sensitive to His wishes in the things that we embrace. God Bless you all (including you too Brother Old Regular):smilewinkgrin:

Thanks,
Bro.Greg:thumbs:

 

[InTheLight]

I'm impressed ITL....you may want to contact LaHaye/Jenkins or one of the movie studios! They might want to employ you as a "ghost" writer or script writer! That was VERY good...had an aire of believability to it!:laugh:

Bro.Greg

Why thank you. I'm particularly pleased with the phrase, "all pull together in one unified push" as I think it captures liberal gobblety-gook speak fairly well.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Begin Laughing..

Why thank you. I'm particularly pleased with the phrase, "all pull together in one unified push" as I think it captures liberal gobblety-gook speak fairly well.

Why you're welcome!! yep...that sounds like something right out of the DNC playbook....no offense:laugh:. Actually, all joking aside....it is way past time for us all to do some serious praying...for this country and our world. Time is winding down quickly I think.

Bro.Greg

 

[convicted1]

Brother Gregg, you mentioned an end time rapture. How could it be end time, if the world goes on for seven more years(trib, then great trib) and then 1,000 years later, judgement? That's 1,007 more years of time after the church is raptured out. Please further elaborate.

 

[SovereignMercy]

It's not a secret to God's elect.

 

[webdog]

There are none so blind as those who will not see the truth!

There is not a single verse of Scripture that teaches a pre-trib snatching of the Church from the earth. Jesus Christ tells us that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, neither can dispensationalists!

You were specifically asked not to participate via the op. Respect the wishes of those starting the thread. Prosyletize your stuff on your own thread. How extremely rude and Christ dishonoring!