Featured Does ALL mean ALL or not ALL

It is you that opposes truth. Instead of believing Jesus's words, you teach the falsehood of Augustine. You believe because this falsehood has been handed down for 1500 years that it is true. It is the blind leading the blind.

You can read, Jesus said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN. I have said that a hundred times to you, but it fails to register with you. If we are born dead in sins as Augustine and you teach, then NEVER could anyone say we are alive AGAIN. In your view we were NEVER alive.

Jesus knows doctrine better than you, Augustine, Calvin, Luther and all your Reformed teachers you follow. Jesus knew exactly what he was saying when he said the prodigal son was alive again. In all three stories, no person was originally lost. The sheep was not originally lost, the silver piece was not originally lost, and the prodigal son was not originally lost.

Do you really believe Jesus makes mistakes? Do you believe Jesus would tell three parables in a row that contradict and refute Original Sin unless it were true?

So, you cling to your false teachers, I will believe Jesus.

The difference is that I explain why you are wrong. You simply say I am wrong and then copy and paste what others say. You cannot even speak for yourself. You should stay with driving trucks.

Actually, quite a few people have said what I have said makes perfect sense, and that none of you have refuted me. Hank says he can see my point of view. That is because the scripture actually says what I am saying. He admits it may be true. The only reason he is having doubts is because he has been taught falsehood like you all his life. Unlike you, he is not afraid to think for himself and at least consider another point of view. You are simply a parrot.

 

Winman,

Let's take alook.....

Jesus said they cannot hear His word, they are of the devil..

This is not a parable...it is straight forward teaching..very clear

I do believe Jesus Winman....

Jesus was not teaching about original sin in the parables...he was teaching about lost/found......you do not grasp this,evidently.

Ps....Hank was being polite to you......I deal more direct....

I think for myself and it leads me to repeat from those who were much more gifted in their understanding. I will be a parrot of truth any day....then an inventor of novelties , error, and things that contradict themselves. The Historic church has avoiding and corrected many of these errors and unfortunate ideas you set forth.
Take another look at what they say....

 

What a laugh, you are the one who is not hearing Jesus's words, Jesus's words are the very foundation of my argument. I have said at least 100 times that Jesus said the prodigal son was alive again. You don't seem to get it, if the prodigal son is alive again, then he was alive before he went out in sin and became lost and dead. This absolutely refutes Original Sin, but you are not able to grasp that.

If you heard Jesus's words you would agree with me, it is the words of Jesus that is my proof against this false doctrine you teach.

And the three parables are clear, none show a person originally dead in sin as you falsely teach.

No, you believe Augustine, Calvin and all your Reformed "scholars".

Oh, but Jesus WAS teaching about Original Sin. All of these stories were about sinners who repent. None were originally lost. The sheep was not lost, the silver piece was not lost, the prodigal son was not originally lost. It is plain as day if you would allow yourself to see it.

No, he was being honest. You should try it sometime.

You do not think for yourself. You parrot others and then believe you are smart. You do not dare question these "scholars". If you did you would see they were very human and often made mistakes. I am showing you this is one of their greatest mistakes.

I do not think I am smart, I am a very simple person. But I can read what Jesus plainly said, and so can you. If you would listen to Jesus you would see he contradicts your Reformed teachers. I realize that would be a big shock for you, but do you want to conform, or know the truth? It is up to you.

 

Winman, if it weren't for Romans 5 (particularly verse 12) I would be right there with you. I've said that before.

I know that you seem to like the Greek Orthodox view but In the last statement of Romans 5:12 it certainly includes both sin and death as "passing though" the entire human race as the result of one man's (Adam's) sin.

But in spite of their command of the Greek language they also believe in the Real Presence of the flesh and blood of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist - the real but bloodless re-enactment of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary.

All this from John 6:53

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.​

They will tell you that this very plain and simple scripture is very easy to understand even by a child.

To be consistent wouldn't you have to adopt this view as well?
After all they are Greek speakers and they should know what this is saying.

Related to that they also believe in the apostolic succession and the sacerdotal priesthood in that only those descending from Christ by the laying on of hands have this ability to "change" the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

And many other doctrine (erroneous IMO) which are drawn from the Greek Scriptures.

My point is that Greek speakers or not, their views can be and are indeed wrong - both Romans 5:12 and John 6:53 included as well as many other scriptures.

HankD

 

Yes, I remember. Romans 5:12 does not say Adam's sin passed upon us, but death. Those who teach Original Sin teach that this verse says Adam's SIN passed upon us. That is the error. Ezekiel 18:20 clearly says that each man dies for his own sin and that the son does not bear the sin of his father.

From what I understand, the EOC believed a "corruption" passed upon all men, a weakness, and infirmity that makes it easier for man to sin. I believe there is scriptural support for this.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Jesus said this before the disciples received the Holy Spirit, so the word "spirit" in this verse is speaking of man's natural spirit. Jesus said his disciples were willing to stay awake and pray with him in their spirits, but their flesh was weak. Compare this to what Paul says in Romans 7, I personally believe Paul was speaking from the perspective of a natural unsaved man in this passage. This of course would refute Total Inability as Calvinism understands it.

But the point is, the scriptures seem to teach a physical weakness or infirmity that absolutely has a big effect upon our willpower. I gotta tell ya, I often get groggy and tired myself during long prayer sessions, I think most Christians can relate to this.

Nevertheless, temptation is not sin. Jesus could be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15). The tug and pull our flesh puts upon us is not sin, it only becomes sin when we obey it and transgress one of God's laws. Sin is the transgression of the law, sin is not a state of being, it is not a nature, it is an unlawful ACT.

I absolutely agree with scripture that all men who come of age and understand right from wrong will willfully sin and spiritually die. Once they spiritually die they must indeed be born again as when the prodigal son repented. When he repented Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.

You cannot convince me that Jesus did not understand the implication of his own words when he said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN. This absolutely implies the prodigal son was alive before he went out in sin and became lost and "dead" as his father said. Do you really believe Jesus would say something misleading? I refuse to believe such a foolish thing.

Oh, if I thought the EOC was correct then I would join their church. They have many errors, but I believe they were correct on Original Sin. Augustine used a flawed Latin text, (scholars have admitted and confirmed this) that said "in whom" all have sinned, which Augustine believed referred to Adam. The correct interpretation is "for that" or "because that" all have sinned, meaning all men die because of their own personal sin.

I believed OS for many years because that is what I was taught, just like you. I did not question it at all. Then, as I read the scriptures over the years I noticed more and more scripture that clearly refutes it. Luke 15 absolutely refutes it, but really, there are literally dozens of scriptures I could show you that refute it. Romans 7:9-11, Romans 11:9, 1 Peter 2:25 being just several. And of course you know I have presented Ecc 7:29 dozens of times that says God has made man upright, and the word "they" shows this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Pay attention and you will see for yourself. For example, look at this famous verse often used to teach OS.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I bet I have seen this verse quoted hundreds of times to teach Total Depravity. But does it teach we are born depraved? NO, it teaches that we were like a fresh green leaf, but our sins have taken us away. We have become corrupt, we have faded, we are like a dead leaf that will soon fall off the tree.

But NO leaf starts out dead does it? NO, all leaves start out fresh and green, full of life.

Pay attention and you will see, all scripture teaches this if you pay attention.

 

Winman,

We say it because it clearly teaches it as does romans 3
for there is no difference,

23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --


12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;


here it is.....you can believe it or twist it....I showed you the greek on it...and here it is in english......all sinned in the past...at one point in time.....if you do not believe it that is between you and God.

 

What a laugh, it says "for all did sin". It does not say that Adam's sin is imputed to us as you falsely teach. Do you not think the scriptures could clearly say Adam's sin is imputed to all men if it were so?

To the contrary, scripture says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You take Rom 3:23 that says "for all did sin" and interpret this to say God imputes Adam's sin to all men, then you take Eze 18:20 that says God does not impute any man's sin to his son, and interpret that not to say what it clearly says. And you consider yourself a scholar? :laugh:

You believe scripture in exact reverse! Amazing!!

It says death passed upon all men, NOT SIN. You teach that Adam's sin is imputed to us. You teach that we were all born dead in Adam's sin. Nonsense, that is not what this verse says. It makes this even more clear in the next two verses.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Several points here, #1 these verses are not speaking of all men, but of only those from Adam to Moses. #2 it says these men did NOT sin after the similitude of Adam. If Adam's sin was imputed to them as you falsely teach, then they would indeed be guilty of sinning after the similitude of Adam's sin.

No, if you read ALL of Romans, Paul told us in chapter 2 that men without the law will perish without the law because they have the law written on their hearts and are a law unto themselves. This is why men from Adam to Moses died (spiritually) even though there was no written law.

It is you that twists scripture, you teach Romans 3:23 teaches all men sin in Adam when it says no such thing. Then you twist Ezekiel 18:20 to teach the exact opposite of scripture that God unjustly imputes the sin of the father to his son.

You are so messed up and you don't even recognize it. Try putting down those Reformed authors and think for yourself for once. Try reading scripture for what it actually says and not inserting your false doctrine into it.

You are no scholar.

 

Winman,

As usual......you do not understand any one of the verses you are speaking about.
You can laugh...call me a parrot...say all the puritans and reformers were wrong...

Then you deny the actually teaching of scripture .....am I supposed to say...Nice post Winman...really good thinking there. All the church has seen it different until you have come on the scene. Somehow....God has allowed you to give unique interpretations even though the greek text teaches the opposite to what you say, so we must ignore what it actually says and listen to you???? Sure....Let me seriously consider that!

Ps....romans 5 :14...which you entirely miss....teaches exactly what I say to you, but the fact that you offer it up and still do not see it...is not good.

 

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: alla ebasileusen (3SAAI) o thanatos apo Adam mechri Mouseos kai epi tous me hamartesantas (AAPMPA) epi to homoiomati tes parabaseos Adam, os estin (3SPAI) tupos tou mellontos. (PAPMSG)
Amplified: Yet death held sway from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who did not themselves transgress [a positive command] as Adam did. Adam was a type (prefigure) of the One Who was to come [in reverse, the former destructive, the Latter saving]. [Ge 5:5; 7:22; Dt 34:5.] (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: they all died anyway—even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come! (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: Nevertheless death, the complement of sin, held sway over mankind from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sin was quite unlike Adam's. Adam, the first man, corresponds in some degree to the man who has to come. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: But death reigned as king from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the One who is to come. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

 

You are a joke. You actually teach that scriptures mean the exact opposite of what they say. Romans 3:23 does not say Adam's sin is imputed to all men, it says, "for all did sin". You have to resort to some Greek argument to try to prove your false doctrine. I would be willing to bet you know NOTHING about Greek, you are relying on what someone else said.

How 'bout it? Do you know Greek?

You certainly can't get your doctrine from the English. You are foolish enough to believe this argument when you have no idea if it is true or not. That is plain DUMB.

I'm not going to be nice to a false teacher like you.

You ignore scripture that is very specific and clear on this subject. Ezekiel 18:20 says the son shall not bear the sin of the father, neither shall the father bear the sin of the son. God is just, God does not unjustly impute one man's sin to another as you teach. You do not realize that you are practically teaching blasphemy. You are teaching that God is unjust.

 

John Mac
Now notice again that it keeps using the word "sin." It says that by one man sin entered the world, and the second principle, death by sin. Now listen to me. Death comes not because you commit sins, but because bear in you a sin principle, a corrupt nature. How do we know that? Well what about when a little baby dies? What about a baby that is two hours old or three hours old or three days or four weeks or six months, have they committed overt acts of sin? Are they guilty of unbelief and rejection of Jesus Christ? Lying, cheating, stealing? No, no, no. But they die, don't they? Why do they die? Because constitutionally they sinned in the loins of Adam and they inherited that sin principle and with it the penalty as well. And that's why death is in the world because we're born to die. We have inherited a principle, a disposition, a state of existence. We like to call it, in theology, depravity, total depravity.

You see, corruption invaded the human realm and none of us can escape...none of us. So from Adam on everyone has the sin principle and the sin principle issues in...what?...sins. And I would just like to remind you that you're not a sinner because you sin. No. You sin because you're...what?...you're a sinner. You're not a liar because you told a lie. You told that lie because in your heart you're...what?...you're a liar. You premeditated it before you ever said it. And you're not a murderer because you killed somebody, you kill them because in your heart you're a murderer. You see, it's what Jesus said in Matthew, we learned it there, it's in Mark as well, it's not that which goes into a man that defiles him, it's that which...what?...comes out of him for out of the heart proceeds evil, murders, so forth.

 

First, the comparison between the effects of Adam’s sin and Christ’s obedience breaks down under this interpretation for if I became a sinner solely by my own personal choice, can I become righteous solely by my own personal choice? If this is the case, why does Paul repeatedly call righteousness a gift in this passage? Further, if all men are sinners—as everyone in this discussion agrees—doesn’t it seem rather strange that every person on the globe chose to rebel—every person down to the last one? This being the case, a better explanation seems to be that all men are born subject to another law, than that each had their own personal fall into sin. One might also ask why infants die since they never “sinned” (at least according to this model) and how God can view all of us as sinners even though some are not yet born (Rom 5:8).

Second, and most damaging to this position, is the fact that the text repeatedly relates the sin of Adam directly to the race as a whole: (1) death spread to all men through the sin of Adam (5:12); (2) “the many died through the transgression of the one man” (5:15); (3) “judgment resulting from the one transgression led to condemnation” (5:16); (4) “For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one” (5:17); (5) “condemnation for all people came through one transgression” (5:18); (6) “just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners.” It is difficult to argue away the direct connection Paul explicitly makes between the sin of Adam and that of the race as a whole. In short, this view has little to commend it except the notion that it appears to be fair: we die only for our own sin, not that of another, i.e., Adam. But this is clearly not what the passage teaches.

 

I don't care if you post 100 Reformed "scholars" on here, Romans 3:23 does not say Adam's sin is imputed to all men. If so, then all the scholars who translated all the different versions of scripture failed to interpret it properly, not one single version says this.

KJV- For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does this say Adam's sin was imputed to all men? NOPE.

NIV- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Does this say Adam's sin was imputed to all men? NOPE.

ESV- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

How 'bout the ESV? Does it say Adam's sin was imputed to all men? NOPE.

NASB- for all *have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Does the NASB say Adam's sin was imputed to all men? NOPE.

RSV- since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

NOPE.

ASV- for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

NOPE.

Young's Literal- for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

This is literal, and does not say one word about Adam's sin being imputed to all men.

I could go on, but if you fail to listen now you will continue to be stubborn. None of the real scholars who translated all the various versions of scripture interpreted Romans 3:23 to support Adam's sin was imputed to all men as you falsely teach.

So, you just go on and believe your false interpretation of scripture, you have no support except other deceived Reformed "scholars".

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

Winman,

The ignorance here is coming from you as you deny the truth of the Gospel.God's righteousness imputed to us, in the place of Adams sin which had been passed on to us.

This like I said to you weeks ago....is your failure to understand the fall leads you into all manner of error. Until you get that right truth will elude you.

calling me a parrot,and dumb just shows your frustration,Violence and evil speaking are not the solution Winman...get a grip on yourself!

 

They all sinned......at one point in time....in a past completed action.:thumbsup:

 

Well, isn't that where we disagree? I believe a man can choose to believe the word of God and trust Jesus, and then God will impute righteousness to him.

You believe a man can only be righteous if God regenerates him. You have no idea whatsoever if God has regenerated you. If I asked you right now how you know you are regenerated, you will suddenly become an Arminian and say you chose to trust Christ. It would be comical if not for the fact that you do not recognize your own inconsistency.

Adam set the example. If we willingly sin as Adam did, then sin is conditionally imputed to us. If we trust Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father when he commended his spirit into his Father's hands, then we will be conditionally imputed righteous as God promised.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5 speaks of justification. Our justification is CONDITIONAL, we must trust Jesus to receive forgiveness of sins.

Likewise, being condemned is CONDITIONAL, we are condemned when we choose to willingly and knowingly sin as Adam did.

The scriptures in Romans 5 both contrast but are parallel. If righteousness is CONDITIONALLY imputed, then sin is CONDITIONALLY imputed as well.

 

And yet every scholar who translated all the many versions of scripture failed to interpret this verse to say this.

What a joke. Do you even think about what you are teaching? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

VINCENT'S NEW TESTAMENT
WORD STUDIES - ROMANS 3
Opps you are mistaken again:wavey::laugh::thumbsup: but denying God's word is not a joke

here it is again.....
8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

 

I am not pelegian as you are...or semi pelagian.

God saved me ....period...I did not choose anything, or decide anything.
I would never repeat such a foolish idea.

I give you credit to openly post this falsehood, but that is what you believe .I would edit it before anyone else sees it.

 

You are stubborn, you do not know when to give up. You do not have one version of scripture that says what you say Romans 3:23 says. Not one version says all men sinned in Adam at one point in time.

A person would have to believe that ALL of these probably hundreds of Greek scholars were completely inept at interpreting scripture.

Only you and your select "scholars" are correct. What a laugh.

You just keep telling yourself you are right, I know you will anyway.