Clear up confusion about tongues!

[awaken]

They were telling of the mighty works that God has done - not to the crowd? That's interesting. You see, if tongues is a private prayer language, then how could the public understand? Because God caused them to speak in languages to share with the people the great and mighty works that He had done. If it were just to God, then it wouldn't have been understandable. Your theory makes no sense in light of Scripture.

It was a sign to the unbelieving Jews that the Holy Spirit had been poured out!
Notice Peter directed them back to the ones speaking in tongues in vs. 15-19. What they heard was what was promised in Joel.
Yes! You can understand someone speaking in tongues if they are speaking the language you have learned.
They were not speaking in other tongues to share with the people...they were already filled and speaking to God before the crowd heard the noise abroad and came together and understood what they were saying.

 

[awaken]

Paul explicitly quotes Isaiah 28:11-12 which explicitly states it as a sign directly addressed to the Jews and explicilty describes their reactions "for all that they will not believe me saith the Lord."

On Pentecost the Jews claimed they understood the tongues and said what was being spoken. So you believe the Holy Spirit wrote led Isaiah to say that tongues were given to Israel for the express purpose they would receive it as a sign that the promised "rest" had come and yet the same Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost led and empowerd the twelve to use it for some other purpose than what God predicted and designed it for?

Did they all understand what was spoken...they understood their words! But some thought they were drunk?
Peter directed them to Joel..
THey/we are in the last days
His Spirit was poured out to all.
What they witnessed was the sign that Joel was speaking about!

 

[annsni]

Why do you pray out loud in an assembly?

I do not speak private prayer languages.

 

[awaken]

I will take that as a yes. silly

So you do not know what they were doing?

 

[awaken]

I do not speak private prayer languages.

In any language..with your understanding?

 

[Revmitchell]

So you do not know what they were doing?

Apparently you don't.

 

[awaken]

Apparently you don't.

I gave my answer...where is yours?

 

[Revmitchell]

I gave my answer...where is yours?

YOu gave no answer.

 

[awaken]

YOu gave no answer.

I did in prior post..but I will repeat my stand on who they were speaking too..

They were all together in one place, then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they all began speaking in tongues. Since they were all speaking in foreign languages, they could not have understood each other. Therefore, they were not talking to one another, but notice that there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to.They were talking to God and praising Him in tongues in the Holy Spirit, which is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit. They were praying in the Spirit.

 

[annsni]

In any language..with your understanding?

I do not have a "private prayer language" but instead I pray in English.

 

[awaken]

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46)

While the apostle Peter was teaching Cornelius and his household about Christ, the Holy Spirit came on everyone who heard the message. They all began speaking in tongues, but they were not witnessing to anyone because every non-Christian in the house had just gotten saved (there was no-one else present who needed to hear the Gospel). Instead, they were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

 

[The Biblicist]

If you do not separate the two you contradict scriptures! Acts 2, 10 were not speaking to man but to God! That is prayer!
If you are called to speak in tongues in the assembly you have to have an interpretation. That is to edify the church!
Same tongue..Speaking to God! I have explained this before!
Tell me who interpreted in Acts 10 or 19?

You are failing to understand the Biblical design for tongues that Paul quoted from Isaiah. It is designed as a "sign" to JEWS.


In Acts 2 it was JEWS who responded to it according to the stated purpose of this sign in Isaiah 28:11-15.

In Acts 10 it was a sign to the JEWS (who were brought along) that God had received the gentiles.

In Acts 19 this event was in direct connection with the Synoguoge and the JEWS (Acts 19:6-7).

 

[The Biblicist]

Did they all understand what was spoken...they understood their words! But some thought they were drunk?
Peter directed them to Joel..
THey/we are in the last days
His Spirit was poured out to all.
What they witnessed was the sign that Joel was speaking about!

The Holy Spirit is the one claimed it was designed to be a "sign" to Israel and it was the tongues they responded to. The Joel prophecy did not contradict the Isaiah prophetic design but simply explained more than mere tongues.

 

[The Biblicist]

I did in prior post..but I will repeat my stand on who they were speaking too..

They were all together in one place, then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they all began speaking in tongues. Since they were all speaking in foreign languages, they could not have understood each other. Therefore, they were not talking to one another, but notice that there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to.They were talking to God and praising Him in tongues in the Holy Spirit, which is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit. They were praying in the Spirit.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Nowhere does the text say they used tongues to "praise" God. Nowhere does the text say they were "praying" in tongues. Nowhere does the text say they were addressing God.

The text says "AS" the Spirit gave utterance "there were....JEWS....WHEN is this was NOISED abroad.

They were being immediately and directly heard by other Jews. It appears that they had left the room and were openly speaking among the Jewish people and it drew a crowd from the Jews in the direct vicinity.

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree that Paul is correcting the assembly use of tongues. Without the interpretation it will not benefit the listeners.

You are missing one vital point! It is equally "unfruitful" to the speaker as well.

Second, the way they were doing it was WRONG or else there would be no need for correction! When you use gifts WRONG you cannot be edifying others or POSITIVELY edifying yourself as the WRONG use can only NEGATIVELY build yourself up BEFORE MEN. Why do you think he is directing them in the "way" of love if which "SEEKETH NOT HER OWN"!

Paul was continuing to explain that an uninterpreted message given in tongues to the church congregation does not edify them (build them up in their faith) because they can't understand what is being said.

Neither can it build the speaker up in the faith as he equally does not "understand" it!

On the other hand, an interpreted message in tongues does edify the congregation because it results in a revelation or a word of knowledge or a word of prophecy or a word of instruction. In other words, the public form of tongues needs to be interpreted into the local language, otherwise the speaker is just speaking into the air and not doing anybody (other than himself) any good.

No! He is not doing himself any good either. Just as "understanding" is required to do others good it is required to do him good also -no double standard. Without understanding he too simply speaks into the air, is unfruitful, and gets absolutely nothing from it but a SHOW of spirituality.

Paul was saying that using the private form of tongues in a public fashion is a waste of people's time, and apparently this is what some of the people in the Corinthian church were doing.

He says no such thing! He is speaking of tongues any way they are used whether prayer, singing, or any other mode of expression that you would use your own language to do. He is flatly repudiating the use of tongues anywhere at anytime if they do not benefit the speaker and/or the hearer with "understanding". If they are used according to their Bibical design as a "sign" for lost Jews then they will be understood by the listeners (Acts 2:6-11). If they are used in a church setting they are strictly limited to only three members at most, one at a time, none if there is no interpretation. There is no such thing as a private use where one merely babbles and is edified by such babbling! Verses 16-17 is not a private setter either but there are listeners presente (v. 17). He is repudating any and every use where "understanding" is absent.

In addition, if we are praying to God in the Spirit (the private form of tongues), we can ask for the interpretation and God will sometimes give it to us in order to instruct us.

Verses 16-17 is not a PRIVATE forum as LISTENERS are said to be present. There is no such "private form of tongues" anywhere in scripture. That is an oxymoronic idea where you speak and no one comprehends your babbling. We don't need that kind of babbling to pray as the Holy Spirit knows both our needs and God's Will and He intercedes in our behalf (Rom. 8:26-27) and his "groanings" are not "uttered" by or through us.

 

[The Biblicist]

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46)

While the apostle Peter was teaching Cornelius and his household about Christ, the Holy Spirit came on everyone who heard the message. They all began speaking in tongues, but they were not witnessing to anyone because every non-Christian in the house had just gotten saved (there was no-one else present who needed to hear the Gospel). Instead, they were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

You are failing to interpet this scripture in its overall context.

1. How many times did God have to give Peter a vision in order for him to go to gentiles?

2. What did Peter say in response to the first words to Cornelious about even coming into his house?

3. How did the church react to him when they heard he went into a gentiles house and then baptized them?

What happened in the text you quote was God's way to CONFIRM TO JEWS that God had accepted these Gentiles on equal basis or else these JEWS would never have received them, never have baptized them.

Hence, again tongues were being performed exactly according to the God's design for them in Isaiah 28:11-15 to confirm to unbelieving JEWS God's promiised rest received by these Gentiles. They were "unbelieving" Jews in regard to accepting Gentiles as believers of that rest on equal basis into the JEWISH congregation.

 

[awaken]

You are missing one vital point! It is equally "unfruitful" to the speaker as well.

Second, the way they were doing it was WRONG or else there would be no need for correction! When you use gifts WRONG you cannot be edifying others or POSITIVELY edifying yourself as the WRONG use can only NEGATIVELY build yourself up BEFORE MEN. Why do you think he is directing them in the "way" of love if which "SEEKETH NOT HER OWN"!





Neither can it build the speaker up in the faith as he equally does not "understand" it!






No! He is not doing himself any good either. Just as "understanding" is required to do others good it is required to do him good also -no double standard. Without understanding he too simply speaks into the air, is unfruitful, and gets absolutely nothing from it but a SHOW of spirituality.




He says no such thing! He is speaking of tongues any way they are used whether prayer, singing, or any other mode of expression that you would use your own language to do. He is flatly repudiating the use of tongues anywhere at anytime if they do not benefit the speaker and/or the hearer with "understanding". If they are used according to their Bibical design as a "sign" for lost Jews then they will be understood by the listeners (Acts 2:6-11). If they are used in a church setting they are strictly limited to only three members at most, one at a time, none if there is no interpretation. There is no such thing as a private use where one merely babbles and is edified by such babbling! Verses 16-17 is not a private setter either but there are listeners presente (v. 17). He is repudating any and every use where "understanding" is absent.





Verses 16-17 is not a PRIVATE forum as LISTENERS are said to be present. There is no such "private form of tongues" anywhere in scripture. That is an oxymoronic idea where you speak and no one comprehends your babbling. We don't need that kind of babbling to pray as the Holy Spirit knows both our needs and God's Will and He intercedes in our behalf (Rom. 8:26-27) and his "groanings" are not "uttered" by or through us.

Those that believe will speak with new tongues! Nowhere does id say it is a sign to unbelievers in Mark 16.
"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (Ephesians 6:18)

"But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." (Jude 1:20)

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

A person prays in the Holy Spirit to God. When a person prays in the Spirit, this does not need to be interpreted into the local language because God always understands what the Holy Spirit is saying (although sometimes God gives us the interpretation of what we said in order to edify us and instruct us). The Bible refers to this as "praying in a tongue" (see 1 Corinthians 14:14), "praying with my spirit" (see 1 Corinthians 14:15), "praying in the Spirit" (see Ephesians 6:18), and "praying in the Holy Spirit" (see Jude 1:20). Bible scholars sometimes refer to this as the "private" use of tongues.

You ignore what Paul calls "praying in the spirit"

The word "edifies" is a translation of the Greek word oikodomeo, which means "to build up in the faith, to edify" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1031). Paul said in this verse that speaking in tongues "edifies" a person (it builds up his faith), and Jude said that we should build up our faith, praying in the Holy Spirit:
"But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith - make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher - praying in the Holy Spirit" (Jude 1:20, AMP)
Jude said that praying in the Holy Spirit builds us up and edifies us. Paul said that speaking in tongues builds us up and edifies us. Again, "praying in the Spirit" and "praying in tongues" are simply two ways of saying the same thing.

 

[awaken]

Most ignore the intercessory expression of "praying in tongues" where we are speaking not to men, but to God alone. The last time I looked, God didn't need to be evangelized, yet he does desire our prayers. This special usage is for our private prayer life and not designed for public evangelistic purposes. Praying in tongues can be performed alone without anyone else being present. (1 Cor. 14:2 1 Cor. 14:14 Romans 8:26-27)

Tongues is only a sign for unbelievers...??
It not only ignores praying in tongues (praying with the spirit) where we are speaking not to men, but to God alone--but also "singing with the spirit" and "blessing with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:14-17). Unbelievers do not need to be present when we "pray in tongues" (pray with the spirit). This usage is uniquely designed for our intercessory prayer life. Unbelievers are usually not with you in your prayer closet. Praying in tongues can be performed alone without anyone else being present. It's a sacred relationship and communication between you and God. (1 Cor. 14:2 1 Cor. 14:14 Romans 8:26-27)

 

[The Biblicist]

Those that believe will speak with new tongues! Nowhere does id say it is a sign to unbelievers in Mark 16.

So you are saying that tongues is inseparable from truth faith in Christ and thus non-speakers are lost. The fact that Paul denies that God gives tongues to all believers is simply trashed by your interpretation (1 Cor. 12:29-30).

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

Another verse jerked out of context. In context, Paul is referring to speaking in tongues without an interpreter not just speaking in tongues. Neither does this verse say one word about praying in tongues but rather speaking in tongues.

A person prays in the Holy Spirit to God.

To do anything "in the Holy Spirit" does not mean the Holy Spirit does it for us but rather what we do is done by or under the leadership of the Spirit. Just like to "walk in the Spirit" does not mean the Holy Spirit walks for us but rather we live by his power and leadership. To pray "in the Spirit" simply means to pray under the leadership of the Spirit.

You are confusing texts that speak of what is done "in my spirit" versus what is done "in the Spirit." Our spirit may bear witness with the Holy Spirit but that does not mean they are one and the same but rather our spirit is following or submissive to the leadership of the Spirit.

When a person prays in the Spirit, this does not need to be interpreted into the local language because God always understands what the Holy Spirit is saying

Praying in "my spirit" is not the Holy Spirit- praying. When the Holy Spirit intercedes for us it is with groanings "THAT CANNOT BE UTTERED" and tongues can be uttered and is our utterings (Rom. 8:26-27).

The Bible refers to this as "praying in a tongue" (see 1 Corinthians 14:14), "praying with my spirit" (see 1 Corinthians 14:15), "praying in the Spirit" (see Ephesians 6:18), and "praying in the Holy Spirit" (see Jude 1:20). Bible scholars sometimes refer to this as the "private" use of tongues.

This is absolutely pure 100% hogwash! First, these scriptures have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit praying for us. To pray "in the Holy Spirit" simply means to pray under the leadership of the Spirit just like to "walk in the Spirit" does not mean the Holy Spirit walks for us but rather it means to live under the leadership of the Spirit.

You ignore what Paul calls "praying in the spirit"

You ignore the context from which it is taken and then completely pervert it, and jerk it out context. The context is repudiating any praying in tongues that does not come with understanding for both the speaker and the hearer. This is not a context of PRVIATE prayer as 1 Cor. 14:17 explicitly mentions those listening to us when we pray.

The word "edifies" is a translation of the Greek word oikodomeo, which means "to build up in the faith, to edify" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1031).

He is saying this as a rebuke not as a compliment. He also repeatedly qualifies edification in connection with tongues to be inseparable from understanding what is said. The hearer is only edified when he understands what is said. Likewise, the speaker is only edified when he understands what is said (1 Cor. 14:14-17). So verse 2 must refer to one who speaks with understanding but no one else is given understanding so the speech is a "mystery" to all others but God.

Paul said in this verse that speaking in tongues "edifies" a person (it builds up his faith),

He says no such thing! Edification for both hearer and speaker requires understanding. The speaker who does not understand is not edified but the whole exercise is "unfruitful." Finally, faith cannot be built up when there is no understanding of what is said as faith requires "substance" that gives hope and the Bible does not teach blind faith or blind hope and that is precisely what you are attempting to teach when you say a person who does not understand what they are saying is being edified when Paul says they are being "unfruitful."

and Jude said that we should build up our faith, praying in the Holy Spirit:
"But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith - make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher - praying in the Holy Spirit" (Jude 1:20, AMP)
Jude said that praying in the Holy Spirit builds us up and edifies us. Paul said that speaking in tongues builds us up and edifies us. Again, "praying in the Spirit" and "praying in tongues" are simply two ways of saying the same thing.

Look at the context! he is contrasting the saved with the lost who is "sensual" or carnal. We are to build ourselves up in "the faith" (apostolic doctrine) and through prayer under the leadership and power of the Holy Spirit and keeping ourselves in the love of God. This has nothing to do with tongues or any other sign gifts. Peter provides Elijah as the model of prayer for us and Elijah never prayed in tongues. Jesus never prayed in tongues but lived, walked, preached, prayed "in the Spirit" as the gift of tongues was not given until Pentecost.

 

[The Biblicist]

Most ignore the intercessory expression of "praying in tongues" where we are speaking not to men, but to God alone.

This interpretation is based upon jerking 1 Cor. 14:2 out of its context. The context is dealing with speaking in tongues without providing an interpetation to the listeners. In that context only God understands as he "speaks into the air."

Praying in tongues can be performed alone without anyone else being present. (1 Cor. 14:2 1 Cor. 14:14 Romans 8:26-27)

To quote those texts for that point is shere deception and abuse of scripture. Romans 8:26-27 does not say one word about speaking in tongues and explicitly states what is said by the Holy Spirit cannot be uttered by men and tongues are utterances coming forth from the mouth of men. Both 1 Cor. 14:2 and 14:14 are in the context of listeners who are not given understanding of what is being said.

Tongues is only a sign for unbelievers...??

Tongues are not given to believers but are a sign to Jews and that cannot possibly refer to a IN CHURCH context because lost Jews don't attend church! So your intepretation is rediculous just as is your denial that is not for unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:20-22).

It not only ignores praying in tongues (praying with the spirit) where we are speaking not to men, but to God alone--but also "singing with the spirit" and "blessing with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:14-17).

That occurs ONLY when the listeners (v. 17) are not given understanding and there are no listeners in PRIVATE prayer! So much for another false interpetation and abuse of scripture.

Unbelievers do not need to be present when we "pray in tongues" (pray with the spirit).

In the book of Acts JEWS were ALWAYS present when tongues were spoken (Acts 2, 10, 19). Paul says tongues are not for "unlearned" unbelievers or for believers. That leaves only JEWS and unbelieving Jews are OUTSIDE the church not inside it.

This usage is uniquely designed for our intercessory prayer life.

No such scripture exists to support this wild theory!

Unbelievers are usually not with you in your prayer closet. Praying in tongues can be performed alone without anyone else being present. It's a sacred relationship and communication between you and God. (1 Cor. 14:2 1 Cor. 14:14 Romans 8:26-27)

That is pure fiction and perversion of every single text you reference! 1 Cor. 14:2 is found in the CHURCH not outside of it. I Cor. 14:14 presents only an "IF" scenario which Paul rejects in verse 15. The prayer in this context has listeners (v. 17). Romans 8:26-27 refers to something that cannot be uttered and tongues are uttered right out of the mouth of the speaker. There is no mention of tongues or any other spiritual gift in Romans 8.