Total Spiritual Inability

[Van]

“Tell me how man is not totally depraved, and totally unable to believe prior to regeneration in light of these passages: Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1; and Col. 1:13. How would you reconcile the Greek work "nekros" in describing the sinners spiritual condition?”

This is a typical off the shelf deflection of truth posited over and over by various Calvinism accolades.

What does “totally depraved” mean according to Calvinism. It means we are in a spiritually dead condition, with dead meaning having no ability to discern any spiritual truth. Otherwise we would be alive. Does scripture anywhere every say such a thing? No. However, they ask the non-Calvinists to jump through the hoops over and over and over again. Then they simply dismiss the evidence.

Matthew 23:13 has unregenerate men entering heaven, yet they are blocked by false teachings from false teachers. How could a “totally depraved” person using the Calvinist definition of the term be entering heaven without seeking the spiritual realm of heaven?
No answer will be provided, just the usual, it does not mean what it says, or they were saved later, even though never mentioned in scripture. Such an argument would reverse any truth taught in scripture. Universalists use the same tactic, arguing from silence.

Once a person accepts that to be “spiritually dead” simply means to be separated from God and unable to obtain union with God, then the action to seek God becomes possible.
No need to pretend the folks that receive the gospel with joy were “partially regenerated” just enough so they could do what scripture says they did, but not enough for God to credit their faith as righteousness. Again, this whole line of argument is from silence, When a person is put spiritually in Christ, then they are made alive together with Christ. So the only biblically based definition of being spiritually dead is to be outside of Christ, i.e. in Adam, or in the realm of darkness. The extra meaning (unable to seek God and trust in Christ) added by Calvinist doctrine is no where to be found in scripture. On the contrary, verse after verse tells us of folks seeking God through works.

Now a mind set of the flesh is not set on spiritual things. But a mind set on spiritual things is not set on the flesh. So the issue is not that a mind set on the flesh is unable to please God, the issue is whether an unregenerate, spiritually dead, separated from God person can set their minds on some spiritual things and seek God. Calvinism says no, but Matthew 23:13 says yes. The mistaken view, held by Calvinism is that men of flesh, i.e. unsaved, unregenerate, and spiritually dead, are unable to set their minds on some spiritual things, some of the time, like those in Matthew 23:13. Clearly the Calvinist view is unbiblical and mistaken. Another flaw is the assumption that if something is true some of the time, i.e. men of flesh have their minds set on the flesh, that it is true all the time, i.e. men of flesh are unable to set their minds of some spiritual things some of the time.

Next scripture teaches that men in the flesh are men of flesh with their minds set on the flesh. In this condition men in the flesh cannot please God. So all this says is you will not seek God through faith if your mind is set on the flesh. It does not teach men of flesh cannot at any time set their minds on some spiritual things like the men of Matthew 23:13.

1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man, which refers to a spiritually dead unregenerate man of flesh, does not accept the things of the Spirit of God. Here the Calvinists insert “all” into the text, reading it to say, does not accept all the things of the Spirit of God. The alternate reading, does not accept some of the things of the Spirit of God is seen as adding to the text, whereas “all” is implied by the text. This of course is sheer fiction.

Continuing in the passage, verses 15 and 16, we see that born again believers have the mind of Christ and are able to appraise all spiritual things. Then in verse 3:1, we see Paul had to speak to them as if they were men of flesh or babes in Christ. They were not able yet to receive spiritual meat, but were able to receive the milk of the gospel. Thus the very passage cited by Calvinist to demonstrate men of flesh are unable to receive the milk of the gospel actually demonstrates they are able.

Ephesians 2:1 simply says we are dead in our sins before we are made alive together with Christ. The unstated assertion is to say being dead we are unable to seek God or receive the gospel. However, that definitional argument, defining “spiritually dead” to mean unable to seek God and trust in Christ, is not found in scripture. So the verse is non-germane, yet is cited as if it carried with it the Calvinist definition of being spiritually dead. This is simply doubling down of the assumption that men of flesh are unable to receive the milk of the gospel, now refuted by two separate passages, Matthew 23:13 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

Colossians 1:13 is yet another non-germane verse which teaches it is God alone who transfers us from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son. That is simply saying we do not save ourselves by trusting fully in Christ. It is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness, or not because He alone knows what is hidden in our hearts, and then if He credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness, then He puts us in Christ.

Bottom line, once again the usual support for the mistaken view of Calvinism has been fully refuted by many scriptures, yet not one Calvinist will acknowledge this truth.

 

[zrs6v4]

So you think there are people who are honestly seeking God apart from God working in them, yet are stopped by false teachers such as Pharisees? There are people honestly seeking God who God allows the Pharisees to prevent from entering heaven, people who would have entered yet were deceived by Pharisees?

Were these people elect, not elect, or potential elect? Were they good people without bad motives?

Do you think God is helping them find their way and the Pharisees stepped in and ruined it?

I'm just trying to understand your interpretation of Mathew 23 a bit deeper.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I like Matt 23:27:

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

This is one of the many passages the Christian apologists of the 2d and 3d centuries used against the deterministic fatalistic heresies of which Calvinism is merely a sickly subset.

 

[Alive in Christ]

That is one of the multititudes upon mulitudes of scriptures that prove that Calvinism is overflowing with false doctrine.

 

[Van]

What does Scripture Say?

So you think there are people who are honestly seeking God apart from God working in them, yet are stopped by false teachers such as Pharisees? There are people honestly seeking God who God allows the Pharisees to prevent from entering heaven, people who would have entered yet were deceived by Pharisees?

Were these people elect, not elect, or potential elect? Were they good people without bad motives?

Do you think God is helping them find their way and the Pharisees stepped in and ruined it?

I'm just trying to understand your interpretation of Mathew 23 a bit deeper.

1) Yes, the Bible describes lots of people seeking God. Some are seeking God with the wrong motives. Romans 9:30-33 describes people seeking God through works and others seeking God through faith.

2) Do false teachers matter? Yes, scripture makes it clear false teachers can hinder those seeking salvation. Paul mentioned a few by name.

3) Yes, God does not compel people to believe in Him, He sets before us the choice of life or death, not death only for the supposedly non-elect, and life only for the supposedly elected before creation fiction.

4) The people of Matthew 23:13 were not elect. They did not believe or have faith in the truth because they were turned aside by false doctrine. But the point is they were seeking God, i.e. entering heaven, so Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine. And if one says they had been enabled by Irresistible grace, then they could not have been turned aside. The only deflection that can be offered by Calvinism is to claim they were saved later, and the event was just not recorded in scripture. This is an argument from silence and is without merit.

5) God's grace of revelation does provide the opportunity to believe but does not compel belief. Second, the limited ability to believe can be taken away by God, i.e. He can harden hearts as in Romans 11, and it can be lost through the practice of sin.

6) My understanding of Matthew 23:13 is that Calvinism must nullify what it says because if taken straight up, it demonstrates both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines.

They were entering heaven so they were seeking God.
They had not yet been chosen for salvation through faith in the truth because they were blocked and no plan of God can be thwarted.​

7) The Calvinist fiction that God is defeated if someone resists the call of the gospel is without merit. No plan of God can be thwarted, therefore God's plan is to allow people to make their autonomous choice to believe in Him or not.

Rather than trying to understand my view, perhaps a better plan would be to understand that the TULI of the Tulip has no actual support in scripture, as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[zrs6v4]

1) Yes, the Bible describes lots of people seeking God. Some are seeking God with the wrong motives. Romans 9:30-33 describes people seeking God through works and others seeking God through faith. .

Romans 1-3: Pauls mission is to lay out the bad news of the entire human race being under sin, within that scope we find 3:11, “no one understands; no one seeks for God.”
You might say, the no one is not everyone, but I think the context building up to that condemnation to the whole race is pretty clear.
Now obviously your trying to prove Calvinism wrong here, which seems to be your agenda. I don’t think that is a good motive. I would try to reconcile Biblical texts before trying to win a debate. Now, we both have our hands full I must admit.

2) Do false teachers matter? Yes, scripture makes it clear false teachers can hinder those seeking salvation. Paul mentioned a few by name. .

I agree, false teachers can indeed hinder lost people from the kingdom of God. Here is how it works:
Luke 6:39, “He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?”

3) Yes, God does not compel people to believe in Him, He sets before us the choice of life or death, not death only for the supposedly non-elect, and life only for the supposedly elected before creation fiction. .

Oh boy, we disagree here. Although my view is heretical, here is my attempt :
Issue 1: “God does not compel people to believe in Him”… By “compel” I assume you mean force or lure? Well there many ways of viewing this. Obviously people must be compelled to Christ in some way shape or form in order to believe, but I don’t think you would disagree. What you don’t agree about is God luring people to Himself like a fisherman does a fish, am I right in assuming this? I think that is the point in John 6:44 when Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws him…”
Emphasized word “draw” in Greek actually means lure, and the challenge you have is that Jesus said nobody comes to Him otherwise.
Helkuo
hel-koo'-o Verb
Definition: to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
NAS Word Usage - Total: 8
drag 1, dragged 2, draw 1, draws 1, drew 2, haul 1

4) The people of Matthew 23:13 were not elect. They did not believe or have faith in the truth because they were turned aside by false doctrine. But the point is they were seeking God, i.e. entering heaven, so Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine. And if one says they had been enabled by Irresistible grace, then they could not have been turned aside. The only deflection that can be offered by Calvinism is to claim they were saved later, and the event was just not recorded in scripture. This is an argument from silence and is without merit. .

I agree they were not elect. I think you are relying to heavily on Mathew 23. The context is Jesus condemning Jewish elders for their great errors. Within all the rebuking we see verse 13: “For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.” (Im not sure why my Bible leaves out verse 14 but that’s another topic).
The interpretation you have “people seeking after God with right hearts and motives” comes from “those who would enter to go in”. Therefore you assume a lot of positive things about these lost people that I think are proven otherwise in other places of Scripture. I don’t think the interpretation you have is so clear cut here because: Who are these people who would enter? What are they like? Why are they so open hearted? Are they open hearted? Are they looking for the true God (In contradiction to Paul in my Romans 3 passage)? Are they simply less hardened people than the Jewish leaders? Exactly what does Jesus mean here? My point is that the statement is vague, but is used by Jesus to nail the Jewish leaders for leading less sinful people astray by their legalism.

5) God's grace of revelation does provide the opportunity to believe but does not compel belief. Second, the limited ability to believe can be taken away by God, i.e. He can harden hearts as in Romans 11, and it can be lost through the practice of sin. .

See my above post on the drawing work of God. Romans 3:11 + John 6:44 = The need for the Holy Spirit to do a work in a lost soul before they come to Christ.
I don’t have the details of my view worked out completely, but I think there is mystery to how God works in people of varying degrees of hardness of heart. He clearly can harden or soften hearts, but the exact details become philosophy once we start working out those issues.

6) My understanding of Matthew 23:13 is that Calvinism must nullify what it says because if taken straight up, it demonstrates both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines. .

I think you are hanging on to Mathew 23:13 and other passages as if a Calvinist has no room for them to fit in their view. This passage for me sits ¾ of the way down on my consideration list because it is not one of those detailed passages that really make or break a theological stance such as Romans 9.
I think it is a mistake on your part to take such a general passage and use it to defeat a theological system, it is like trying to knock someone out by hitting them in the head with a balloon. Spiritual inability or irresistible grace are both words I would not use in my understanding of how God works in salvation. I wont go into detail as I don’t want to start more rabbit trails here.

They were entering heaven so they were seeking God.
They had not yet been chosen for salvation through faith in the truth because they were blocked and no plan of God can be thwarted.

I think this is faulty logic that has a lot of assumptions driven by an agenda to defeat Calvinism rather than wrestle with Scripture. That is of course my opinion and may not be fair to say. I in part dealt with this above.

7) The Calvinist fiction that God is defeated if someone resists the call of the gospel is without merit. No plan of God can be thwarted, therefore God's plan is to allow people to make their autonomous choice to believe in Him or not. .

I cant speak for all Calvinists, but I do believe people can resist God and according to my understanding of Scripture and these people are non elect who come in all shapes and sizes. People who hear preaching and respond in various ways (3 of 4 seeds in Jesus’ parable of the sower?). These people resist all day long in different ways. I cant say whether or not the Spirit has anything to do with their refusal, but I know that according to John 6:35-65 people who the Spirit draws (elect)wont resist because God does something special within them which saves them. We both know God can work in such a way, but you simply believe He wills not to work in such a way and I believe He does will and work in such a way. In both of our views, God, who is all powerful, does not fail when He wants to do something. At least I hope we can agree here.

Rather than trying to understand my view, perhaps a better plan would be to understand that the TULI of the Tulip has no actual support in scripture, as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

I lose interest really fast to be honest. If I feel like I am going to have the same conversation 1,000 times without anyone thinking deeper or willing to think I will opt out. I asked for deeper clarification because any reasonable person trying to understand another must ask questions or we will not understand each other. If we both have the same agenda to annihilate and make each other look stupid and wrong then that will not work very often, but rather produce mutual pride. Anyway, I was hoping to see you reason a little deeper with your view. I would suggest you do not clump me and all Calvinists together in whatever view you have of us/them and speak to each as an individual with a personal view. Not only is it more productive, but it’s a lot more satisfying than playing battleship with theology.

 

[jonathan.borland]

All men are morally depraved until regeneration, but all have total ability to respond to the Holy Spirit's convicting work, either with acceptance or rejection.

Acts 7:51 **Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

So we see that the term "total inability" is complete nonsense, since people always have been and will continue to be "able" either to resist or receive the Holy Spirit who is alive and present and convicting everyone in the world.

 

[Iconoclast]

jonathan.borland

All men are morally depraved until regeneration, but all have total ability to respond to the Holy Spirit's convicting work, either with acceptance or rejection.

No...not at all

So we see that the term "total inability" is complete nonsense, since people always have been and will continue to be "able" either to resist or receive the Holy Spirit who is alive and present and convicting everyone in the world.

The only nonsense here is that you do not understand the clear teaching of the verse......

Acts 7:51 **Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears,



ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye

The unsaved always resist.....they cannot come, because they do not have a new heart.....which is given at regeneration.
All unsaved men resist unless God draws them.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Van

“Tell me how man is not totally depraved, and totally unable to believe prior to regeneration in light of these passages: Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1; and Col. 1:13. How would you reconcile the Greek work "nekros" in describing the sinners spiritual condition?”

This is the only good part of the post.:thumbs::laugh::wavey:

 

[zrs6v4]

All men are morally depraved until regeneration, but all have total ability to respond to the Holy Spirit's convicting work, either with acceptance or rejection.

Define morally depraved in your view?

Define total ability and how the Spirit works within that scope?

I would like to see how you work out your belief, scripture use would help me see if you wish.

So we see that the term "total inability" is complete nonsense, since people always have been and will continue to be "able" either to resist or receive the Holy Spirit who is alive and present and convicting everyone in the world.

You quoted Acts 7:51, ""You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit ; you are doing just as your fathers did."

This passage does not disprove "total inability". I should say that although I believe nobody will come to Christ without the Spirit's internal work on the soul, I do not believe total inability is a good term. I may differ from other Calvinists on this point, but I believe people are able to turn in faith to Jesus, but at the very same time it is impossible for the lost soul to do so without the Holy Spirit. They have the freedom yet choose otherwise. The term total inability gives a false notion that the freedom is not there. To give an illustration, Jesus had the freedom to sin, but it was impossible at the same time. I see a lost human being to be the same way but only they cannot not sin without the Holy Spirit.

As for the Acts interpretation, my above view on total inability fits perfectly fine. Furthermore, I think you are taking a statement made by Stephen to show the hardness of the Jewish leaders hearts and misapplying it against Jesus in John 6:44 and Paul Romans 3:11.

I would safely interpret Acts 7:51 to mean simply that the crowd Stephen preached against were hard hearted and due to their hard hearts they always reject the Holy Spirit. Yes they have the freedom to worship Jesus by turning in faith and they can accept that or reject it. The question is will they and if they do did they do it without God's help?

You may also be tripped up because the Holy Spirit is mentioned "being reject" Stephen says.

Does this mean:

1. The Spirit is working in their hearts like John 6:35-65 drawing them, but they refuse?

2. Is the Spirit generally being rejected by everyone because of His presence?

3. Are they rejecting by lives of disobedience and unbelief as a whole?

4. The Spirit is being rejected as He is ever present within everyone convicting them constantly letting them have an opening to accept or reject?

5. The Spirit is being rejected as He at times convicts and gives chances at certain times in unbelievers lives?

6. or other?

I dont think you can just say "look the Spirit is being rejected, therefore it must mean that everyone can accept or reject freely without having to be effectually called or drawn irresistably. There simply isn't enough for either of us to build a theology on in that passage.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Accidental post. sorry; Dont know how to delete it! :laugh:

 

[zrs6v4]

Accidental post. sorry; Dont know how to delete it! :laugh:

There is no such thing as an accident, God is purposeful in all things jk

PS. this is good opportunity to reach 1,000 posts, thanks

 

[Benjamin]

Christmas approaches and it is a time that many may be seeking the truths of God.

To any lurkers that may not know Christ; Jesus said: Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

That means you genuinely have hope, Jesus told us of the promise from the beginning of creation made to all men:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So don’t believe the words of those who take pleasure in telling you that you may have not been pre-selected. Also God is not slack in His promises:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Bible is clear that God's Loving promise has been genuinely made to you:

(5) Rom 10:9 If YOU declare with YOUR mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in YOUR heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU will be saved.


Note: YOU is used 4 times in this verse alone. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that some on this baord would like to suggest to others that the bible supposedly says that we do nothing.

Therefore, do not be lead astray by what you might hear. Jesus gives all men the light (influence) they need to truly respond:

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Believe, and ask God to show you the way to salvation.

Jesus said to the woman in tears in love of the Truth at His feet:
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much, and He told her:Thy sins are forgiven and Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Luke 7)

God is waiting for YOU to respond. You can put these Words in the bank as true:

Mat 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: (8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

May God bless you and Merry Christmas to all!

 

[Iconoclast]

That is one of the multititudes upon mulitudes of scriptures that prove that Calvinism is overflowing with false doctrine.

Alive in Christ..... Accidental post. sorry; Dont know how to delete it!


:thumbs::thumbs::laugh::thumbs:

 

[Herald]

..........not even worth it.

 

[psalms109:31]

The war of total inability and depravity. We have a desire to worship of course we do, but knowing and looking for the one true God we do not.

We have no desire to look for what we do not know, only what we know, and after seeking what we do know for so long we do not desire to look for something else.

Total inability is for them, you can not change anyone who does not want to listen and learn and you can blame many on that and mostly within ourselves for our murdering path, not from our love for our enemies as our God has taught us to do, but we did not listen and learn from Him.

Luke 6:27
[ Love for Enemies ] “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

We have our own mess to clean up, that we have made, the change in the world starts with our selves. God has hidden the truth from the Jews, because of their murdering way's, until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord and turn to God through Jesus Christ, they will continue to be blind.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Luke 11 :
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Matthew 23 :
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The meaning of saying no one seeks God is to telling us to seek them as Paul did, and the reason to say no one is righteous is to tell us the way it is and to praise God, because Jesus came to save sinners and i am the worst.

When we listen and learn from Him, He will change us.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

 

[Van]

Romans 1-3: Pauls mission is to lay out the bad news of the entire human race being under sin, within that scope we find 3:11, “no one understands; no one seeks for God.”
You might say, the no one is not everyone, but I think the context building up to that condemnation to the whole race is pretty clear.
Now obviously your trying to prove Calvinism wrong here, which seems to be your agenda. I don’t think that is a good motive. I would try to reconcile Biblical texts before trying to win a debate. Now, we both have our hands full I must admit.

1) This assertion, no one understands means no one understands at anytime is without merit. We have lots of examples of people seeking God, so the contextual meaning is no one seeks God when they are sinning, and we all sin some of the time.

2) The whole human race is conceived in iniquity, condemned already because of unbelief. The unstated assertion here is that being condemned equates with having do ability to seek God and trust in Christ. Not true. God hardens hearts removing that innate ability.

3) I showed from scripture that Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine, using Matthew 23:13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Calvinism has the chosen given faith, but scripture has us being chosen through faith in the truth. Thus faith before our individual election for salvation. Second, Calvinism has the unregenerate unable to seek God but Matthew 23:13 shows unregenerate men seeking God.

I agree, false teachers can indeed hinder lost people from the kingdom of God. Here is how it works:
Luke 6:39, “He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?”

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this verse does not say all men are blind all the time. In Matthew 23:13 the men saw well enough to be entering heaven, and then were blocked. This cannot happen according to Calvinism, thus Calvinism is mistaken.

Oh boy, we disagree here. Although my view is heretical, here is my attempt :
Issue 1: “God does not compel people to believe in Him”… By “compel” I assume you mean force or lure? Well there many ways of viewing this. Obviously people must be compelled to Christ in some way shape or form in order to believe, but I don’t think you would disagree. What you don’t agree about is God luring people to Himself like a fisherman does a fish, am I right in assuming this? I think that is the point in John 6:44 when Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws him…”
Emphasized word “draw” in Greek actually means lure, and the challenge you have is that Jesus said nobody comes to Him otherwise.
Helkuo
hel-koo'-o Verb
Definition: to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
NAS Word Usage - Total: 8
drag 1, dragged 2, draw 1, draws 1, drew 2, haul 1

1)Here we have the Calvinism claim "draw" means drag. However the word, when used metaphorically means to attract, persuade, convince, etc.

2) Next we get the claim John 6:44 says everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus. Thus 100% of those drawn come. However, that is not what the verse says. It says 100% of those that come to Jesus were drawn. But it does not say everyone drawn comes to Jesus. This inability to see the set and the subset in the sentence is mind-boggling to me.

I agree they were not elect. I think you are relying to heavily on Mathew 23. The context is Jesus condemning Jewish elders for their great errors. Within all the rebuking we see verse 13: “For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.” (Im not sure why my Bible leaves out verse 14 but that’s another topic).
The interpretation you have “people seeking after God with right hearts and motives” comes from “those who would enter to go in”. Therefore you assume a lot of positive things about these lost people that I think are proven otherwise in other places of Scripture. I don’t think the interpretation you have is so clear cut here because: Who are these people who would enter? What are they like? Why are they so open hearted? Are they open hearted? Are they looking for the true God (In contradiction to Paul in my Romans 3 passage)? Are they simply less hardened people than the Jewish leaders? Exactly what does Jesus mean here? My point is that the statement is vague, but is used by Jesus to nail the Jewish leaders for leading less sinful people astray by their legalism.

1) Here we have the "it does not mean what it says" defense.

2) I am relying on this verse too much. If our understanding is correct, I believe it will fit with all scripture, rather than require nullification of other verses.

3) Apparently you are using the ESV translation, would enter, rather than the majority of modern translations (i.e. NASB, HCSB, NKJV, and WEB) which read "entering." Thus you question whether they had the right hearts etc, but if they were entering, then all those challenges are addressed, because they have an open door based on their heart.

See my above post on the drawing work of God. Romans 3:11 + John 6:44 = The need for the Holy Spirit to do a work in a lost soul before they come to Christ.

See my rebuttal to the Calvinism claims Romans 3:11 says no one seeks God "at any time," and my rebuttal of the Calvinism claim John 6:44 says 100% of those drawn come to Jesus. Both views simply rewrite the text.

I don’t have the details of my view worked out completely, but I think there is mystery to how God works in people of varying degrees of hardness of heart. He clearly can harden or soften hearts, but the exact details become philosophy once we start working out those issues.

1) Either all unregenerate people have no ability to discern spiritual things at any time, or total spiritual inability is false doctrine. Here you are defending it by saying it is a mystery as to why God would need to harden the hearts of those unable to come to Christ. But scripture says God hardened them to prevent them from coming. There is no mystery, Calvinism's view is mistaken.

2) Off topic but you should do a study of God softening hearts. Naturally Calvinism claims every elect person heart is softened by Irresistible grace, but look for the verses that use the term softening hearts. As I said, off topic.

3) It is not philosophy, but bible study that is in view, read Matthew 13:1-23 and see why Jesus spoke in parables. Again the idea was to avoid, because the time was not yet right, those from understanding and being healed. Lots of verses teach our innate ability to discern some spiritual things can be lost or taken away. Each one of them must be nullified by Calvinism in order to evade the "mystery" of losing what Calvinism claims does not exist.

I think you are hanging on to Mathew 23:13 and other passages as if a Calvinist has no room for them to fit in their view. This passage for me sits ¾ of the way down on my consideration list because it is not one of those detailed passages that really make or break a theological stance such as Romans 9.
I think it is a mistake on your part to take such a general passage and use it to defeat a theological system, it is like trying to knock someone out by hitting them in the head with a balloon. Spiritual inability or irresistible grace are both words I would not use in my understanding of how God works in salvation. I wont go into detail as I don’t want to start more rabbit trails here.

1) All passages on the topic of our limited spiritual ability in an unregenerate state are important and must fit together. To ignore some and rewrite others is not a good plan.

2) Romans 9 completely supports my view and again demonstrates your view is mistaken. Take Romans 9:16, it says it does not depend on the man that wills or the man that runs. How could someone who hates God all the time, and never seeks God at any time, will to be saved or do works in order to be saved? Calvinism's view is easily shredded if one actually studies the topic. However, no one Calvinist will ever accept the evidence, and some generalized claim will be cited to nullify the obvious problem with Total Spiritual Inability. Basically it comes down to the idea that really smart theologians over 400 years could not have missed so obvious a problem. However, you do know that other really smart theologians have said the Calvinist view was mistaken for those same 400 years.

Reply continues in next post.

 

[Van]

I think this is faulty logic that has a lot of assumptions driven by an agenda to defeat Calvinism rather than wrestle with Scripture. That is of course my opinion and may not be fair to say. I in part dealt with this above.

1) They were entering heaven so they were seeking God.

2) They had not yet been chosen for salvation through faith in the truth because they were blocked and no plan of God can be thwarted.

3) These observations are not driven by an agenda, they simply reflect what scripture says. No assumptions have been added. They were entering so their hearts were taking them toward God. Thus total spiritual inability is demonstrated mistaken. This I think is inescapable. All Calvinism can do is say other verses contradict this apparent message. But none actually if you remove the additions to the text added by Calvinism.

I cant speak for all Calvinists, but I do believe people can resist God and according to my understanding of Scripture and these people are non elect who come in all shapes and sizes. People who hear preaching and respond in various ways (3 of 4 seeds in Jesus’ parable of the sower?).

3 of the 4 soils did respond, demonstrating they had some spiritual ability. Only the first soil had the characteristic claimed for all mankind, hardened so that they could not understand the gospel. This soil had lost its ability by the practice of sin.

These people resist all day long in different ways. I cant say whether or not the Spirit has anything to do with their refusal, but I know that according to John 6:35-65 people who the Spirit draws (elect)wont resist because God does something special within them which saves them.

1) Yet another passage that supports my view and demonstrates the Calvinism view is mistaken. We have already dealt with John 6:44, which says the opposite of what Calvinism claims. Next lets consider 6:45.

Everyone who has (1) heard from the Father - unlike the first soil, the other three soils heard from the Father, and
(2) learned from the Father - this is an action of the believer to trust in Christ. That is what the Father is teaching, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

2) Yes the Spirit draws the lost, and then those that hear and learn from the Father, come to Jesus. Again we have the issue of my definition of being drawn, persuaded, versus your definition, dragged by compulsion. However, your view does not mesh with Matthew 23:13, because people being compelled by God Almighty could not be blocked by false teaches. Calvinism's view is simply mistaken no matter how many verses we look at.

I asked for deeper clarification because any reasonable person trying to understand another must ask questions or we will not understand each other. If we both have the same agenda to annihilate and make each other look stupid and wrong then that will not work very often, but rather produce mutual pride. Anyway, I was hoping to see you reason a little deeper with your view. I would suggest you do not clump me and all Calvinists together in whatever view you have of us/them and speak to each as an individual with a personal view. Not only is it more productive, but it’s a lot more satisfying than playing battleship with theology.

I address Calvinism's mistaken beliefs and individual Calvinist posters to try to defend what I believe are mistaken views. I have no interest in making someone look bad, or scoring debate points, truth is our objective.

 

[MB]

[edit - moderation]

 

[Alive in Christ]

This is really good,,,


http://allanturner.com/calbk_1.html

Put On Your Thinking Cap


When it comes to Calvinism, many Christians continue to be "children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive."5 This is not because the Bible is somehow unclear on the subject. The Bible clearly and emphatically denies Calvinism. If God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,"6 then Calvinism simply cannot be true.

The problem for many is that the Bible is not a book on systematic theology. For example, the Bible teaches, but does not systematically set forth, the doctrines of the triune nature of God, the deity of Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit, the reality of future rewards in heaven and condemnation in hell, all of which are questioned by some who claim to be Christians. The Bible is God's special revelation to man. As such, it has a beginning and an end. When one has studied this revelation from beginning to end, he then knows what it is God wants him to know about the myriad subjects contained therein. Only then can one begin to systematize these subjects. Although systematization is an essential process of theology,7 it is at this very point that men begin to go astray.

This problem is dealt with by the apostle Paul, who said, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."8 God's word always accomplishes what He intends; in other words, it never returns void.9 Therefore, how we interpret or "rightly divide" the Scriptures is extremely important. It is at this point that sheep begin to be separated from goats.10 There is no excuse for getting caught up in the error of Calvinism, none except ignorance of God's word! Unfortunately, ignorance is a major problem among God's people today. Some are ignorant because they are still babes in Christ. Others are ignorant because they lack someone to teach them.

Still, other Christians are ignorant through no fault but their own. They do not like to study God's word. Studying is hard work. It requires one to think and, quite frankly, these folks just do not want to think. However, if we are not ready to study the word of God, thinking it out and thinking it through, then we will, quite naturally, wrest the Scriptures to our own destruction.11 If you are not willing to "gird up the loins of your mind,"12 then this study is not for you. Consequently, your lot in this life is to be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."13 On the other hand, if you, like a new born babe, "desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,"14 then I believe you will appreciate this study.