Featured The Doctrines of Grace and the preaching of the Gospel

Yes, I have read accounts of many Reformed/Calvinists having great difficulty accepting the doctrine at first, similar to what R.C. Sproul himself said.

Now, I don't know when R.C. Sproul first heard the gospel and accepted Jesus, but it was very likely as a young man, many years before he entered seminary. I am sure he attended church and read the Bible.

The reason he believed faith preceded regeneration is because there are probably at least a dozen or more scriptures that ALL show this order. In fact, there is not one verse anywhere in the Bible that says regeneration precedes faith.

So, it is completely understandable that this Reformed doctrine was very shocking and difficult to accept at first.

But it is like anything else, the first time you smoke you choke and gag, but if you keep at it you become accustomed to it and it doesn't bother you anymore. Learning error is the same. At first it is shocking and disagreeable, but at some point folks simply give up rational thought and accept it.

 

That is not true whatsoever, I can easily show scripture that supports my view.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now, here are 4 verses that all say you have to believe to have life. If you do not believe you shall not see life.

I could probably show you a dozen more. My view is supported by scripture.

Your view is not supported by scripture, you cannot show even one single verse in all the scriptures that says regeneration precedes faith. I challenge you here and now to show it.

Calvinism is consistent with itself, and this is what deceives folks. It seems to make perfect sense, it fits together like a puzzle.

The only problem is that it is absolutely not scriptural, it actually says the very opposite of what the scriptures say.

But, if you get around enough folks who all say it is the gospel, folks fall for it.

 

Since we were all dead in our transgressions and sins, regeneration must occur first and is clearly taught over and over again when passages are taken in CONTEXT.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The person who believes doesn't then receive eternal life, he believes because he has it:

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Jesus is seen as the initiator of eternal life:

Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

Jesus is the Author of Life and once again the one who believes already has everlasting life :

For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Faith is God's work not our response:

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Unregenerate people have no desire or thirst for God. Jesus never invites everyone. He invites sinners, those who thirst, those who are weary, etc. Because the Spirit is drawing them to Him.

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

The sheep are always secure:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Winman, in your and many others absurd and unbiblical views. Jesus is not the Author and Finisher of our faith. He is not the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is not the One who said that He would build His church and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. You aren't insulting us who hold to Sovereign Grace, but Jesus who has always taught them. It is just one of many signs of your unbelief.

I do share the Gospel with everyone I can, but there are two results I expect and I'm never sure which response will occur.

Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

 

All talk, and not a single verse to support that regeneration precedes faith.

These verses you quoted do not even mention faith, so it is impossible to argue they prove regeneration precedes faith. You are inserting your view into scripture when it is not there.

This scripture refutes you and supports that faith precedes regeneration. It says that to those persons who believe God gives the power to become the sons of God. It is saying that faith precedes regeneration.

That is not what it says, it says that when a person believes, God gives these believing persons the power to become the sons of God (born again).

Again, this supports that faith precedes regeneration. You must believe to have life, if you do not believe you will not see life. This shows faith as the cause, life as the effect.

True.

You have to drink (believe) before you have life. You could be dying of thirst and I give you a big glass of water, that water will not do you any good unless you drink it. It is the same with Jesus, you must believe to have life.

No, the scriptures say the one who believes has life. Scripture ALWAYS shows believing first, life following. If you do not believe you will not see life, this shows faith as the cause, life as the effect.

Plain as day, whoever listens to Jesus and believes in him, Jesus will give them life.

God does not believe for you.

Yes, Jesus told his hearers that THEY must believe. God does not believe for you.

Once again, this scripture says that everyone who believes MAY HAVE (following) life. This is faith preceding regeneration.

Again, it says the person who believes has life. How can you not see this?

If God had not revealed Jesus to you, then you could not possibly believe on him. But you are the one who must believe, and if you do God will give you the power to become a son of God.

Left to themselves I agree, but when they have been called by God they can respond. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead in the garden, but they came when God called.

You are refuting yourself, this verse says that he who believes, out of his heart WILL FLOW (following) rivers of living water.

The sheep are the ones who hear his voice and believe. Notice they hear Jesus's voice, and then AFTERWARD Jesus gives them life.

This does not even address whether faith precedes regeneration.

You seem to believe if you write 10,000 words that that makes you correct. You did not show one verse that says regeneration precedes faith, in fact, you showed MANY verses that said faith precedes regeneration.

Reading without comprehension is useless.

 

Hey Winman,

None of the verses you attempted mentioned regeneration, or faith...either..lol

 

Yes but a large part of the choir are "tone deaf"!

 

You are correct Winman. Jesus Christ doesn't mention faith, belief, or any requirement prior to regeneration or the "new birth". If faith were a requirement for regeneration why does Jesus Christ not tell Nicodemus and us? Was Jesus Christ misleading Nicodemus and all who would read His words? Such a thought is blasphemous. But that is exactly what you are saying. That is exactly what you say in nearly every response you post. You would do well to think about what Jesus Christ is telling you in this passage of Scripture

 

:wavey::thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

Did Jesus the son of the virgin Mary, Jesus the Son of God die because of sin even though he himself was without sin?

Was the inquity of us all laid upon him?

Did Christ die for us? Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Did he die unto sin? Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once:

Was he, Jesus dead? Did he, Jesus have to be regenerated from death?

Was it necessary for him to be raised from the dead, regenerated, in order for his death to have paid for our sins?

1 Cor 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ (of faith) are perished.

I added the of faith for I believe those in Christ are of Faith. They are in Christ by having received the Holy Spirit which they received because Christ went away in death was raised from the dead ascended to the Father and received the Holy Spirit to be shed on us putting us in Christ.

What kind of life was Jesus raised from the dead with? Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Did the resurrection of Jesus Christ concern both soul and body, the flesh? Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Those in Christ (of Faith) are said to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ Rom 8:17
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Is that speaking of eternal life the gift of God as grace?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God:

Did Christ first inherit eternal life from the Father by which those who have been given the Holy Spirit are heirs (to inherit) of eternal life? Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Did the Grace of life come to Christ from God the Father, through the faith of Christ, that is of him, Jesus the Christ being obedient unto death even the death of the cross? He then received the Holy Spirit from the Father Acts 2:33 which was then shed on us Acts 2:33, Titus 3:6 making us heirs of eternal life?

If that above is the truth, and again I say IF you all be the judge; Did the faith of Jesus the Christ precede the resurrection (regeneration) (Grace of life) by God the Father of Jesus? --- Will end with.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

The doctrine of Grace. Percho

 

They ALL did. Regeneration simply means to be made alive again. Jesus said a person who has believed (faith) has passed from death to life (regeneration).

Calvinism does not have one single verse in all the Bible that supports regeneration preceding faith. You can't show it.

There are dozens of verses that all show faith precedes regeneration. You can deny all you want, honest persons know better.

 

You have been shown many times...just have not 'seen it' yet:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

 

And he will not. His ego has blinded him. He is a "Win", at all costs, "Man"!

 

You have never shown scripture that says regeneration precedes faith, no Calvinist has. EVER.

You are seeing things that aren't there.

 

Uh, ever heard of Abraham Booth (1734-1806)?

http://www.pbministries.org/Theolog...trong Doctrine/strong_doctrine_appendix_1.htm

Abraham Booth Combats the 'Pre-Faith Regeneration' Novelty/Contrivance

 

My user name is made from my real name. I prefer to think of it as a command from the Lord to "win" "man" to Christ. :thumbsup:

 

Winman that is false and what is more you know it is false.

 

Spurgeon was also careful to teach that regeneration DOES NOT precede faith.

Spurgeon said that preachers of his day taught a man must be regenerated before he could believe. Spurgeon said this teaching was FALSE.

Here Spurgeon said it is ridiculous to preach to a man who is already regenerated.

You folks don't get it, it is sin that makes us dead in sin. Until you believe you remain dead in sin.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Until you believe you are dead in sin and you will die in your sin. Faith MUST precede regeneration.

 

It is not false. You have never shown any scripture that says regeneration precedes faith. It is impossible for you to do so, no such scripture exists.

You show John 3:1-8 that does not even mention faith or believing, so it is impossible this passage proves regeneration precedes faith, it doesn't address the subject.

You conveniently exclude the rest of the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus where he repeatedly tells Nicodemus he must believe to have life.

You use Ephesians 2 as a proof text to prove regeneration precedes faith, but again, the scriptures you quote do not even mention faith. Faith is not mentioned until verse 8. And even here it says "By grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH" showing that faith precedes being saved or regenerated.

You haven't shown scripture to support your view, and you CAN'T show scripture to support your view, it doesn't exist.