Featured God help us

Hmmm. I don't know that we can jump to that conclusion.

 

OK!

OK 12strings....I stand corrected...I guess I should have run that through my Strong's Concordance before I posted it. Hey..it was after 2am and I was getting a bit crosseyed. I will say this though...the sheer "unnaturalness of the two acts I did mention is repugnant to me (and most normal people) so I won't ever back down from the proper use of the word "abomination"...whether they tell me it is "hate-speech" or not...it is still Biblical!

Bro.Greg

 

1. It is a sin, and an abomination, and deviant...nothing I have said should suggest otherwise.

Scripture also bears witness that what you describe is the path of all types of sin: we indulge a little, and so the sin that previously was unthinkable for us, we commit. (ie, David: 1-not going to battle, 2-lust, 3-adultery, 4-cover-up, 5-murder).

Yes, but the degrees of sin must be biblically defined...It seems from the Romans 1 progression that the 3 degrees of this passage (in order) are:
1. worshiping creation rather than creator
2. dishonerable passions for the same gender
3. A debased mind...defined in this passage as: "all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless."

Jesus also said those to whom much was given would be held more accountable.

Actually, one who find themselves attracted to the same sex, but who commits to a life of chastity and holiness out of love for the Lord, is infintely better off than the man who divorced his wife for a young hottie.

 

It should be, as we imitate Christ who "hate evil" & "loved righteousness." However the 30 year old teacher who sleeps with his 17-yr old student (Both would be adults in bible times) should also be repugnant to us, as should be the internet "stuff."

Good! I'm just saying we should call lying by the same name

 

It is a fact that male homosexuals do abuse young boys. There are some who argue this perversion is beyond cure. I will not attempt to argue that one way or the other. I do hold up the many cases brought forth in recent years against Roman Catholic priests as evidence of the seriousness of this problem.

I have mentioned the following on a similar threat without details but additional detail may show the seriousness of the problem of those who prey on young boys.

I spent most of my work career at a facility that required a clearance to handle classified [secret] information. I knew a man, not personally, who worked there during the many years. Some time after I retired I read in the paper where this man, also retired, had been sentenced to life in prison. His crime was the sexual abuse of young boys. A member of one of the largest Baptist Churches in the city where he lived he had worked with the RA's for years and for years had been abusing young boys. Why or how it went so many years unrevealed I do not know. Presumably there was a reinvestigation ever few years by the FBI for renewal of a clearance.

I do not remember the exact words of the judge who handed down the sentence but they were severe, indicating to me just how widespread his abuse of young boys had been over the years. This problem must not be covered up. For those who have any qualms about revealing this problem they need to read about the "Man Boy Love Association".

 

No, but there IS indeed a much higher percentage of gays molesting yoing boys than should be form their proprtional amount to normal population!

Somre stats are that over 35% habitual chiild molesters are gay, yet only 2-3 % of general population!

And the problem is that MANY of them aremilitant, as some want to have legalized same sex relations between males/boys, so the big concern here is that another side culture fully accepting Gay lifestyle as being equal and same as hetro style...

Shame is really though in AmericanChristians, as we will NOT money support those taking stands against this, but those advocating this open their wallets wide open, as heard Intel of chip fame big sponser of scouts and threatened to pull their support unless change was made!

 

In other words, it's no worse than a hungry man stealing a loaf of bread?

That's just not true. As far as a man's eternal state, it is true, but not as far as a man's natural, temporal state on this earth. There are degrees of good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness. Under some degrees, a nation can survive, under others it cannot.

Again, not true. In one the apetite is not as perverted as the other. That's the fact of the matter. One with unnatural proclivities is definitely far worse off than the other, and definitely not one to be trusted to keep a perverted, gross and inflamed apetite under control.

 

It, in effect, pits the local units against one another. The BSA is now divided and, unless they reverse their decision quickly, conquered.

 

I think I understand what you're saying. But it still sounds weird.

I thought that science actually rebuffed the "majority of molesters" is gay stereotype years ago. Have there been new studies? I actually thought it was kinda weird to be able to measure that from a study anyhow.

But again, I repeat, evil is rampantly spreading because of the church.

 

The bold text; so well put and so applicable to so many of life's tougher dilemmas for Christians trying to discern the difference between in but not of. Of course the follow-up paragraph is aces as well.

We love having the local troops come in for work days. A few have earned their eagle badges on the ministries property. They've been a blessing.

 

What the National Organization has done is to either kill the Boy Scouts or make it a fertile hunting ground for homosexuals.

 

God have mercy, indeed.

This shows that some people will do anything for money. But I wouldn't have thought or expected it of the Boy Scouts. They have sold out.

 

I admitted there were degrees of sin, and I DID NOT say it is no worse than a hungry man stealing bread, that was you, so I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I agree that some sins deteriorate society more than others...although if you think about it, if everyone stole all the time, society would break down pretty quick.

[/QUOTE]

1. You'll have to give scriptures to prove this one. I showed in Rom. 1 where same-gender passions is listed in the middle of listed perversions...not at the top of any list.

2. I still hold that a man who has sinful desires and commits before God not to give in to them is infinitely better off than a man who sinfully indulges in his heterosexual inflamed appetites.

3. Are you saying that we who do not have same-gender attraction do not have any perverted, gross, and inflamed appetites to deal with?

 

Simple -- National leadership has withdrawn support for local organizations, including churches, to ban homosexual leaders and scouts. Thus, making it more difficult for local troop organizers to establish/maintain an anti-gay stance.

National leadership has taken the first step towards making a requirement that local troops must accept homosexual leaders if they call themselves "Boy Scouts". Think that is not the case? National leadership has yielded to pressure and the lure of money. Do you think that combo of pressure and money won't continue until all Scout troops must accept homosexual leaders or be kicked out of the organization?

Crawl back into my cave because I won't "tolerate" (= condone) an abomination to God?

Being in the world and being of the world are two different things. Something that seems to be more blurred as time passes. It's seems that to be in the world, today, is also being of the world.

If I go into a bar to witness, does that mean I have to get drunk to do so?

If I go to a house of prostitution for the same reason does that mean I have avail myself of their "services"?

Do I have to steal in order to witness to a thief? Jesus Christ didn't when he hung on the cross.

Crawl back into my cave because I won't recognize (= fellowship) with openly gay scouts and leaders - "Well if you attend national or even council events there may be some scouts or leaders there who are openly homosexual." -

What's the difference between attending an event with openly gay men/boys and going to a Gay Pride march? IMO, none, unless you are boldly holding up a sign bearing scriptures containing God's word on this subject. How many "Christians" will, in effect, crawl into their caves, in order to have the recognition of attending a "national" event that condones homosexuality? In effect, leave their Armour of God, at home?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. As members of the body of Christ, our commission is to take the gospel to those who have not heard the gospel. In this day, how many living in the United States of America have not heard the gospel in their lives? I suspect very few - again subject to correction.

Yes, we are to continue to witness/preach the gospel, even to those who have heard those words many times before. And -- we are to put on the Armour of God and STAND against the evil forces in this world.

Ephesians 6: KJB

9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Scout leaders - take a stand or resign.

There are other ways to reach out to the youth in your community. Ones that do not have "spiritual wickness in high places". If you cannot affect change, wipe the dust off your feet. Remaining linked, in any manner, to any high place that condones homosexuality is NOT putting on the whole armour of God, IMO.

Do do other wise is no different than using the excuse of "they provide other health services" used by those who support Planned Parenthood. Unborn babies die. With the announcement in the OP, wearing a Boy Scout uniform/badge is an endorsement of that organization's approval of homosexuality. If Scout leaders cannot reverse that endorsement, take off the uniform.

 

Having been a Cub Master, Scout Master and in addition my wife was a Den Mother. In assisting in any way we could both with our son and grand sons I don't recall any check made on any volunteer that offered to help. This will put more responsibility on the Scout Execs and sponsors to screen volunteers.

 

If, as you say, Rom. 1 is a progression, placement of vile affections in such a list is not a ranking of its degree.

The point is that as far as immorality is concerned, sodomy has a degree of vileness that even men without the Spirit of God should find sickening and repulsive. It is not mere immorality, and certainly not something to be tolerated. Not even in the non-Christian world.

Tentmaker's tome is myopic, shortsighted and wrong.

 

And I think right here is why the Body has such a hard time ministering to people with same-sex attractions. I deal with a lot of folks (drug- addicted, same sex attraction, etc.) whose sins and shortcomings all have a perceived "stigma" attached to them. And I say the term stigma because that's how these guys have said they are looked at by Christians.

They feel as though they are treated as the worst of the worst, kinda like the modern day tax collector or leper.

We do a disservice to the Cross when we leave anyone feeling as though their sin is any more vile and wretched than the sin any of us commit DAILY.

This is why so many of them feel as though there is no way God could ever forgive them for what they have done after hearing again and again and again that their sin is the worst of the worst.

There is nothing any more vile about sodomy than there is about the person who continues to steal from God by not tithing.

There is nothing any more vile about sodomy than there is about the person who cheats on his taxes every year.

There is nothing any more vile about sodomy than there is about the person who tells a white lie from time to time because he feels the situation warrants.

The Body needs to be really careful about assigning adjectives to describe other people's sin if we're not willing to accept the same adjectives to define ours.

ALL sin is deviant because the standard is perfection.

 

I have only been a leader for 10 years or so but since at least before that all volunteers had to have a background check, they even have to pay for it. Yes you might have some parents or relatives show up at an event that are not registered, but all registered leaders are checked and have been for at least a decade.

 

Again, scripture please...you may be right about Rom 1. I'm really not sure...the point is that same-gender attraction is NOT placed HIGHER than other sins. If there is scripture where it is, you have yet to provide it. There are many scriptures where it is listed AMONG other sins, with no ranking whatsoever.

The fact is, there are MANY sins that should not be tolerated by Christians or non-Christians...yet in various societies, some are tolerated...which is evidence of the depraved nature of our race. (Murder & Rape come to mind).

So here's a hypothetical situation...you are a pastor at a church, and you have 2 situations:

1. A man comes to you for counseling because he has is experiencing attraction to the same gender. He has not yet committed any acts on that desire, and has commited to keep himself faithful to his wife. He wants someone to help him along and hold him accountable.

2. A man in your church leaves his wife and moves in with the wife of another church member. He shows no remorse and when confronted, simply says God would want him to be happy.

Which is worse off? I say #2 by a long shot.


(I didn't read most of Tentmaker's "tome"...it was too long...and he's not making the same points I'm making anyway)

 

Oldtimer, I appreciate your comments, there is too much there for me to reply to each line or accusation and I am sure we will disagree anyway, but here are just a couple things.
No endorsement or approval of homosexuality has happened, only the removal of the previous ban.
The real pressure the national council succumbed to was the pressure from local councils that have been allowing homosexual leaders for years. There is no money to be gained either way.
No I don’t see my attendance as approval or endorsement. We have homosexuals around us in society every day. They serve in congress and elected office. Should we no longer be part of the United States because we have gay congressmen? Is following the laws established by congress giving approval to their sin, by your logic it is.
I am sure that removing the ban will result in many scoutmasters quitting and some churches removing their support. I think it is a bad move for the organization, but I will not be among those hanging it up.