Featured God help us

It is certain that the sins that Christian commit grieve the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul speaks of these sins in Ephesians 4:20-32, 5:1, 2

20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.I believe that the sins that Christians commit that bring reproach on the Church are worse than those sins that people commit that do not.

5:1. Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2. And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. ]

But then Paul has further instructions for the Church. First he tells us in Ephesians 4:17-19 that we are not to live like the Gentiles, the unbelievers.

17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.]

And then he enlightens us regarding certain sins which bring reproach on the Church of Jesus Christ. He tells us that these sins are not to be named among the Saints of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5
3. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.]

I call everyone's attention to verse 5:5. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.]

We read similar admonition in Revelation 22:15, For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.]

Some think that "dogs" refers to male prostitutes or Sodomites, homosexuals.

I am not going to attempt to explain the impact of all the Scripture presented above. I believe that regardless of the sin a Christian commits he is ultimately forgiven. But I believe the above Scripture show that some sins that a Christian may commit are far worse than others. It seems that these Scripture also indicate that even among unbelievers certain sins are more reprehensible.

Some years ago a male predator in Florida kidnapped a young girl about 12 years of age, kept and sexually abused her for several days, and then buried her alive. Yet it appears some on this Forum would make no distinction between that sin and the most trivial of sins, like speeding.

Sad to say but it seems that some on this thread are almost to the point of justifying perverted behavior such as homosexuality, child abuse, etc.

 

NCT, appreciate the opportunity to continue to discuss even though we may never come into agreement on this subject.

The BSA took their fight for the freedom to exclude homosexuals to the Supreme Court. The Court ruled in their favor. I haven't read the details of their stance nor the Court ruling. So, if anything I'm about to say is in error, please correct me.

In order to take their case to the Supreme Court, the BCA had to take a stance on homosexuality and give reasons why Scout leaders and Scouts should be excluded from their membership. (Other cases of "discrimination" exclusion have failed in the courts.)

If the BCA votes to include homosexuals, they are reversing, at least some, IMO, of their opposition points. Making them no longer valid. Thus, approving of what they once stood against, all the way to the Supreme Court.

Any way you slice it, if the BCA votes to admit openly gay Scout leaders they are condoning what they condemmed. In this situation there isn't a grey area. It's a simple Yes or No. Homosexuals will or will not be allowed to lead groups of young boys.

Please provide evidence that pressure from local councils was due to anything other than money.

Also included in this link:

Withdrawal of State and municipal governments and Companies funding for the same reason. -- And it's more than dollars that's being withdrawn. --

Point: Participating in the BCA is by choice. You and I have a choice as to whether we endorse the BCA through our participation in that organization. As citizens of this country, we do not have a choice to obey laws enacted by the duly elected government of this nation, regardless of our opposition to some of those who have been elected.

Further, scriptures tell us of our responsbility with regards to those who goven us. IMO, that does not extend to secular organizations that we choose to join.

Point: You said "We have homosexuals around us in society every day.
We, you and I, are sinners in a society of sinners. As members of the body of Christ, are we to turn a blind eye to any sin, including our own? Around us every day in society, we encounter thieves, killers of the unborn, liars, worshipers of other gods, etc. & etc. As we struggle to overcome, to repent of the sin in our lives, we are not to give the appearance of evil to others. Jesus said "Go and sin no more". How is it not sinning if we find excuses, through CHOICES in our actions, which gives the appearance that we endorse sins of others? What's the difference between chosing to attend a national convention that welcomes practicing homosexuals and chosing to attend a national convention that welcomes practicing members of satan worshiping cults?

Your decision. Your choice. As it will be for other Scoutmasters and church membership electing to continue or withdraw their support of the BSA.

As I write these words, a thought has come to mind. One day, I'll stand before my Saviour. He will open a book containing all the choices that I've made. How many times did I choose not to give up something I enjoyed doing when it was contrary to what He taught about sin?

 

I think this post is spot on...

I'm even willing to concede that Rom. 1 may not e a progression (I think that's one possible way to read it) ...however if not it is simply examples of sins...not placing homosexuality above the others on the list.

And for those who somehow (I can't see how) believe that posts like this are condoning homosexuality...when someone says Jesus would go to these people, we actually saying it is precisely BECAUSE they are sinners...not because they aren't.

I'm editing to say that, It IS God's design for the church to separate from those who continue in unrepentant sin, whether homo or hetero...with the goal of restoration...but also with the goal of not bringing reproach upon the Gospel...which was Paul's point in 1 cor. 5

 

How is the helpful? Are you saying it's nonsense that Jesus would go to sinners to redeem them? That Jesus would have compassion on them? What part is nonsense?

 

Yes, certainly he must be a novice if he believes God can save and redeem homosexuals...what a ridiculous idea!!!

 

Point, is What you are doing goes against a natural order of life that God has set forth, one that even unbelievers (may of them, anyway) can and should recognize...No one is disagreeing with that...However, there are other sins that everyone knows are wrong (murder, stealing) that some have also begun to condone in certain societies.

Additionally, no one is saying certain sins dont' harm society or people more than others...or even that God doesn't give special warnings about certain sins.

My Original point was this:

I'm going to disagree with the above, not that practicing homosexuality is a sin, but rather that is in some different category than a man visiting a prostitute, or raping someone, or other immorality. ANY immorality is, by definition, a DEVIATION from God's holy purpose for us.

I think this is important lest we begin to think ourselves above "those dirty homosexuals." We have all done things that are an abomination to God, that are immoral, that are deviant from God's good instructions for our lives.
__________________

 

All the above scripture do is place homosexuality on par with covetousness, idolatry, and murder...

What I'm saying is not that there are not worse, and more harmful sins than others. It's obvioius that for someone to commit the above, they have sunk deep down in sin and are completely immersed in their desires...however, a man who always drives 10 mph over the speed limit with not feelings of guilt, and with the attitude that the rules do not apply to him because he can do anything he wants is also demonstrating a hardness of heart that will catch up with him and harm him...and probalby affects other areas of his life. I would say this is also different than the distracted person who ends up going 10 miles over because they weren't paying attention...and then slows down once they realize it...That person could be compared to one who has homosexual desires, but commmits to holiness anyway. (very bad and rough analogy, I know)

Also,, a point we are making is that the hard-hearted speeder has no "high-ground" to stand on in condemning a homosexual...especially one who is fighting their sinful desires...when the speeder himself makes no efforts to combat his.

I really think you are reading too much into our statements...mine at least...I can't speak for anyone else...

 

NCT, I'm using your post to also address some of the other posts. Much of the following isn't in response to your specific comments.

Why isn't the distinction between FORMER - repentent - homosexuals and CURRENT - uprepentent - mentioned with regards to membership in Baptist churches? (Baptist only forum)

In another thread there's a discussion about kicking a deacon out of the church if he doesn't repent of his adultery, if true. I don't remember anyone posting that he should be allowed to continue his affair and continue his role of leadership in his church.

Why isn't the distinction between accepting for MEMBERSHIP in the church those who have repented and those who have not? I am a thief and I will not stop stealing. -- Or-- I am a murderer and I will not stop killing people. Accept me as a member of your local assembly of believers anyway. Would you vote to accept either of these as members of your church?

What is the difference between these two examples and a homosexual saying the equivalent? Accept me as a member of your local assembly. Accept me as a leader of your assembly. Because my sin isn't continuing to steal or murder you should not take my continuing abomination to the Lord into consideration. You should go ahead and baptise me in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. You should break bread and drink wine, in Remembrance, with me, even though I will not refrain from homosexual acts.

Yes, Jesus ministered to sinners. ALL sinners. The scriptures are clear on that point. Jesus was also clear when He said "Go and sin no more". He was clear when he talked to the rich man. He was clear when he talked to many others. Unrepentent sinners will not sit at His feet in eternity. (This is not a discussion about once saved always saved.)

Members of the body of Christ are to minister to all sinners via the great comission and the second of the two greatest commandments.

Can anyone show me, as a layman, any scripture that tells the faithful to bring into the MEMBERSHIP of the local assembly of believers unrepentent sinners? Or, are we to cast them out, in accordance with scripture?

Are the faithful to ignore His witness, on the cross, of the results of having ONE unrepentent sinner in His assembly of disciples? Based on what we understand from scripture, where will that sinner be in eternity?

As a layman, with a deep regret for all the years I was away from the church, I still have much to learn. Am I a Pharisee for beleiving a God called pastor should not baptise a thief, homosexual, drunk, murderer, or anyone else that makes it plain they have no intention of repenting of their sin?

 

Beautiful!!!:thumbsup::applause:

I can't believe how or why any Christian would want to lead any individual to feel that his sin was someone worse than all others.

It's as though some get a dirty pleasure out of making others "worse sinners" to be pointed at.

Help us Lord to treat the "worst of these" as the best of men so that through us they may experience your unconditional love and forgiveness.raying:

 

Nope. I just don't see the value for Christ in making folks feel like their sin is worse than my sin by calling it perverted and deviant, etc,.

As I said before, ALL sin is deviant because the standard is perfection. The same thing can be said about perversion.

God's word seems to identify things as nouns(i.e. an abomination). But we seem to have gone the extra mile of adding adjectives to express our OWN disgust with people's sins as though before a HOLY GOD ours isn't equally deviant and perverted from His perfect righteousness.

 

OK then. Sodomy is not mere immorality. Even pagans should know it, and they have no excuse for not knowing it. Likening it to temptations that are common to men is at best a puerile understanding, and at worst is an attempt to mitigate an offense to nature itself for the purpose of rendering it more acceptable.

That's my point. All other calumny proffered in an attempt to rebut the point is irrelevant.

 

Nope. Sodomy is just as mere immorality as is your unrighteous judgment. As God has written His truth on every man's heart, there's NO sin that any man should not recognize as sin other than because of man's own wickedness.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. Romans 1:18-19

The perfect example is the unrighteous judgment being exhibited in proclaiming these sins to somehow be worse than others. Such proclamations are the result of OUR godlessness and wickedness in not dealing with unforgiveness and hurts in OUR OWN lives.

We tend to take our personal experiences and use them to cast whatever light upon the sins of others that we choose. It simply is inconsistent with the example given in God's word.

 

I'm glad you brought this up, let's consider the following verses from 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 10:13 - "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man..."

-What kinds of temptations were present in the Corinthian church?

1 Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you...."

-SO...Paul first acknowledges that some of the one's in this church USED TO practice homosexuality...then, in the same letter, tells these same people that "no temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man."

No, not making IT more acceptable, rather making other sins LESS acceptable. Homosexual behavior remains unnacceptable. It doesn't move.

After googling "Calumny" (Noun...The making of false and defamatory statements in order to damage someone's reputation; slander; A false and slanderous statement.)...

...I still don't really know what you are refering to...is someone on this thread slandering someone with false statements?

 

Sin separates from God. Jesus Christ came to save sinners of all types. There is no sine he cannot forgive except the sin of unbelief.

That being said what I found to be nonsense is the statement by NCT that:

Emphasis is mine.

 

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the sin of homosexuality. There is no Biblical record that I am aware, other than the flood, where God directly punished a specific sin. Of course the flood was the punishment of sin in general.

 

Thanks for the clarity...

 

I find it strange that a thread presented to discuss the impact of the National Boy Scouts to allow homosexual troop leaders has morphed into a thread where some want to rebuke any Church that would take action to discipline practicing homosexual members, or any believer who would support this discipline.

 

I suppose you are refering to a large group? There's lot's of people God put to death for various reasons: Touching the Ark, lying about their giving, offering strange fire to God...

 

I wonder if we don't keep talking past each other because we aren't really sure what we are arguing about. To clarify my own position:

1. I grant that God gives harsher warnings & punishments in scripture, and in greater numbers, than others.
2. I grant that God says homosexuality is against nature. But I would say that murder is also against nature, so homosexuality is not in a class by itself.
3. I grant that even non-believers SHOULD know that it is wrong...but Romans 1 tells us why they don't, and also tells us why they don't think some other sinful things are wrong.
4. I grant that God give special warnings against sexual sins, such as saying it is the only sin one commits against his own body...but even here it is not limited to homosexual sin.
5. I REJECT that a person who is fighting against a homosexual sinful desire is somehow to be considered worse than another person who is blatantly giving into and indulging a heterosexual sinful desire. The first should be the object of counseling, teaching, and encouragement...the second the object of church discipline.
6. I REJECT that Homosexuality is the worst of all possible sins...if that were so, it would be the 1st commandment.
7. I AFFIRM that homosexual behavior is deviant, immoral, and an abomination to God.
7. I AFFIRM, also, that all sin is deviant, in that it deviates from God's character, his design in creation, and his revealed law.


I also wonder, from those with whom I have been debating...what would, or should be your response to someone who comes to you and confesses homosexual desires, and/or acts?

 

Well said.:applause: I don't think there would be any objection if we were labeling all sin as a deviance and perversion towards God's holiness.