Do you always identify yourself as a KJVO to everyone before you witness to them?
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Must we be calvinists?
- Thread starter 12strings
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Do you always identify yourself as a KJVO to everyone before you witness to them?
Touche:laugh:
quantumfaith
Active Member
IV. Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.
A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.
B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.
C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.
D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.
If you mean the "word" regeneration occurs before the word faith...in a specific sentence...then yes you are correct. If you mean that the BFM is written in order to establish that particular "order salutis" then I think you are not entirely correct. I personally am convinced that the BFM was written in order to pay respect and difference to both large camps found within the family of the SBC.
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Ok, lets look at those verses.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
None of these verses say a man must have spiritual life to believe.
Jesus is speaking of the word of God here. The only persons who can come to Jesus are those who believe the word of God. These persons do not believe the word of God, therefore they cannot come to Jesus. This was also shown earlier in this same chapter.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Verse 44 is very similar to verse 65 except that it says no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. This is a favorite verse of Calvinism.
However, Cals/DoGs almost always neglect to show verse 45 that shows how a person is drawn. They are drawn when they are taught of the Father and learn from him. No supernatural regeneration mentioned here. And how do they learn? From hearing the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Does Paul say faith comes by supernatural regeneration? No, he says it comes by simply hearing the word of God. And earlier Paul had asked how any man can believe on Jesus unless he has heard of him. Again, no mention of a supernatural regeneration being required to believe, but simply to hear of Jesus.
1 Cor 2:11-14 does not teach that a person must be regenerated to believe, it teaches that we have received the Spirit to know the "things" that are freely given us of God. It does not say we have received the Spirit so that we can believe. You are reading into scripture what is not there.
Paul has taught in several other places that a person first believes before receiving the Spirit, such as Galatians 3:2 and Eph 1:13, Acts 19:2.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit by first believing, refuting the Reformed view.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
This verse does not teach that regeneration precedes faith, it does not even mention faith. It simply says God has quickened us or made us alive who were dead in sins.
Verse 8 refutes the Reformed view, because it says that by grace have we been saved THROUGH faith. It shows faith preceded being saved or made alive.
You have not shown one verse that shows regeneration precedes faith. There is no such scripture, you can't show it.
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
No..But....
Mex...No...I don't....but since I am quoting from scriptures that are undeniably the Word of God if I am doing Biblical witnessing (which I'll sadly admit I don't do enough of) I don't really feel the need to do so UNLESS that particular question (about which version is the pure Word of God) comes up (and it HAS before in my experience).
HOWEVER....I would HAVE NO PROBLEM or hesitation identifying myself as such if I were asked too. My beliefs about that matter are both sincere and dear to me.
By the way...I read the alleged "proof-texts" you offered Winman for the "DoG" "regeneration or faith-first" thing and I don't believe they "clearly" teach what you suggest. As much as I detest the normal use of the following phrase (usually by unbelievers) the phrase "that's your interpretation" came to mind. Sorry Brother....the only thing I clearly see from those verses is that lost people can neither comprehend NOR will they "naturally" obey the truth or the truth's of God's Word.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Mex...No...I don't....but since I am quoting from scriptures that are undeniably the Word of God if I am doing Biblical witnessing (which I'll sadly admit I don't do enough of) I don't really feel the need to do so UNLESS that particular question (about which version is the pure Word of God) comes up (and it HAS before in my experience).
HOWEVER....I would HAVE NO PROBLEM or hesitation identifying myself as such if I were asked too. My beliefs about that matter are both sincere and dear to me.
By the way...I read the alleged "proof-texts" you offered Winman for the "DoG" "regeneration or faith-first" thing and I don't believe they "clearly" teach what you suggest. As much as I detest the normal use of the following phrase (usually by unbelievers) the phrase "that's your interpretation" came to mind. Sorry Brother....the only thing I clearly see from those verses is that lost people can neither comprehend NOR will they "naturally" obey the truth or the truth's of God's Word.
Bro.Greg:saint:
What? That statement absolutely supports faith before regeneration. Look what it says.
"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus."
Regeneration is a work where BELIEVERS "become" new creatures. This supports faith before regeneration. Being regenerated is a result or product of believing, believing comes first. If you do not believe you will not BECOME a new creature.
It doesn't say regeneration is a work where persons become believers.
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Exactly!
Excellent Win....simply excellent. The Cals try to make regeneration to be a work of grace PRIOR to actual salvation but it just ain't so! Actual Salvation, Regeneration (and Justification)are all vital ingredients of God's work of Grace that takes place at the moment we are born-again by repentance and faith in the finished work of Christ and His shed Blood at Calvary. You can probably do a better,quicker and more concise job of supplying the proof-texts for that than I can. I have seen and read them and believe them but my memory fails me to produce the verse-references or "addresses" for them off the top of my head. You post the list and I will try to memorize it brother!
Bro.Greg:saint:
Excellent Win....simply excellent. The Cals try to make regeneration to be a work of grace PRIOR to actual salvation but it just ain't so! Actual Salvation, Regeneration (and Justification)are all vital ingredients of God's work of Grace that takes place at the moment we are born-again by repentance and faith in the finished work of Christ and His shed Blood at Calvary. You can probably do a better,quicker and more concise job of supplying the proof-texts for that than I can. I have seen and read them and believe them but my memory fails me to produce the verse-references or "addresses" for them off the top of my head. You post the list and I will try to memorize it brother!
Bro.Greg:saint:
Do you see it now?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Point taken....you need not shout.
There are many scriptures that show faith precedes regeneration.
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I am no expert on grammar, but both of these verses say that whosoever believes "should not" perish "but have" eternal or everlasting life. Faith precedes being made spiritually alive.
No person can be spiritually alive while they remain in their sins. When a man believes, his sins are forgiven. He passes from a state of spiritual death and condemnation to spiritual life.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You cannot be spiritually alive if you have not believed yet, he that has not believed is condemned.
There are many other verses besides these. Calvinism does not have a single verse that supports regeneration preceding faith.
A pastoral candidate should be up front about his theological distinctives. It would be dishonest to hide them in order to be called.
12strings said:
A four-pointer is an Amyraldian. There is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist. One either believes in T.U.L.I.P. or they do not. But even if a pastoral candidate is an Amyraldian, he should be honest about that also.
12strings said:
Again, he should be honest about his beliefs, including any theological areas he is still working through.
12strings said:
For a Baptist, it is not that Calvin is not a good role model. It is that Calvin's ecclesiology is not baptistic. I tend to shy away from the "Calvinist" label, but I can appreciate the "why" of it. I am a Calvinist in my soteriology. It does not bother me if you refer to me as such.
I am assuming you are speaking of 1 Cor 2:11-14??
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I think you have to go back to vs. 7 to get the complete context here. Is the topic of this passage faith? No, the topic is "the wisdom of God". After vs. 7 this wisdom is called the "things" of God. Paul is telling us that we have received the Spirit so that we can KNOW the things freely given to us of God. In vs. 13 he contrasts his words with words which man's wisdom teacheth.
But Paul is not teaching that we must be regenerated to believe. That is a different subject altogether. It is teaching that the Spirit is given to us so that we KNOW or understand the wisdom of God.
Verse 14 is simply saying the natural man will not receive God's wisdom, as it would seem foolishness to him. An example might be to "turn the other cheek" or to "bless those that curse you". The Christian can understand how being kind and loving can win an enemy over, where an unbeliever may believe this complete foolishness.
This passage is not saying we receive the Spirit so that we can believe. In fact, many scriptures teach that a person must first believe to receive the Spirit.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Again, Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit by first believing.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Paul's question clearly shows he believed a person received the Spirit after and as a result of believing.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Paul directly says here that these Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit after first believing the gospel.
So again, 1 Cor 2:11-14 is not teaching that a person must be regenerated to believe. It is teaching that a person must have the Spirit to know and understand the wisdom of God.
But many scriptures show that a person first believes before receiving the Spirit.
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbs::thumbs:
Jerome
Good link Jerome:wavey: This kind of biblical reformation needs to take place in many more churches in our land:thumbs:
sadly....
So when the truth of God was preached and taught, these tares and goats left, many probably just went down the street to the next dead church and signed up.....
good link Jerome ...a reminder that much work needs to be done.
Good link Jerome:wavey: This kind of biblical reformation needs to take place in many more churches in our land:thumbs:
sadly....
So when the truth of God was preached and taught, these tares and goats left, many probably just went down the street to the next dead church and signed up.....
good link Jerome ...a reminder that much work needs to be done.
Oops. Elsewhere Fred Malone admitted the upshot of their experiment in church Reformitude:
"A co-pastor, who was added to serve with Ernie, decided he could no longer stay in the SBC. He resigned and took many of the active young couples with him and formed Emmanuel Baptist Church, a Reformed Baptist congregation. North Pompano never recovered from the split and finally was handed over to the local Baptist association for oversight."
"A co-pastor, who was added to serve with Ernie, decided he could no longer stay in the SBC. He resigned and took many of the active young couples with him and formed Emmanuel Baptist Church, a Reformed Baptist congregation. North Pompano never recovered from the split and finally was handed over to the local Baptist association for oversight."
So what's the problem with this?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Luke, would you feel the same if the situation were "converse"?
I think the best kingdom builders should win. I don't think EITHER side should use established power to stifle the growth of the other.
If Calvinists are better at persuading people that what they believe is true- then Calvinists take over.
If Arminians are better at it- then Arminians take over.
What I don't like is when one side is better at winning people, doing missions, building churches, etc... but they are assaulted by the established power simply so the established power can STAY the established power.
There have been times that Arminians were better at convincing people. Under Finney Arminians took over. Calvinists reigned before Finney.
Now there is a resurgence of Calvinism.
Let the best Kingdom builders win.
Power will shift from generation to generation. Let it occur naturally. Don't try to legislate it away.
Thank you Herald for addressing the point of the OP.
It seems my short example was not very clear to many people. I'm not suggesting the pastor hide his beliefs, I'm suggesting that he explain them, and explain why he does not call himself a calvinist.
I'm especially interested in the Amaraldian point, because chances are, only about 1-5% of pastor search committee members know what that is. So, if they ask an amaraldian, "are you a calvinist?" Should he answer no and explain why, or answer yes and let them assume what his beliefs are without him ever explaining them.
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So if you were an amaraldian, would you still identify as a calvinist when asked?
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