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Featured Original sin (pre-Augustine)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Mar 8, 2013.

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  1. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Irenaeus (130-202 AD) pre-dated Augustine of Hippo by 150 years. Irenaeus introduced the doctrine of original sin before Augustine, although the term "original sin" would be developed later. Two quotes from Irenaeus from his compilation, "Against Heresies."

    "In the first Adam we offended God, not fulfilling His commandment...to Him alone we are debtors, whose ordinance we transgressed in the beginning." Against Heresies 5, 16, 3.

    "In Adam disobedient man was stricken."
    Ibid. 5, 34, 2.

    The point? Original sin was not an Augustinian invention. It existed in the early patristic age.
     
    #1 Herald, Mar 8, 2013
  2. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Tertullian (160 - 220 AD) wrote, "We have born the image of the earthy, through our participation in transgression, our fellowship in death, our expulsion from Paradise."

    "...every soul is counted as being in Adam until it is re-counted as being in Christ, and remains unclean until it is recounted."
    De Resurrectione Carnis Liber 49.
     
    #2 Herald, Mar 8, 2013
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Looks as if they read romans 5,and 1cor 15...as we do:thumbs::wavey:
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2013
  4. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    However, you do realize, do you not, that there was a difference between the East and West on how they viewed sin, and a significance difference it was.
     
    #4 Thomas Helwys, Mar 9, 2013
  5. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    The doctrine of the early church was one of mixture and error. The fathers could be spot on about a doctrine like the Trinity, and then be advocating heresy over teachings such as the pre-existence of the human soul. The point being that just because we can trace quotes back to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries doesn't really mean much. Most doctrinal clarity has come after the Reformation.
     
    #5 Herald, Mar 9, 2013
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The early church fathers believed very differently than Augustine.

    source

    http://www.revivaltheology.net/11_born_sin/historysin.html
     
    #6 Winman, Mar 9, 2013
  7. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    #7 Herald, Mar 9, 2013
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    ROFL! Thank you for pointing that out!
     
    #8 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 9, 2013
  9. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    The apostolic and early church fathers are helpful to understand church history and practice. Beyond that we have to careful about extrapolating doctrine from their writings. Scripture is our rule and ruler. That's my reason for the OP. Some have accused those of holding to original sin as buying into a Roman Catholic view espoused by Augustine. I just showed that "his" view existed over 150 years earlier. As I alluded to earlier, we see the greatest doctrinal progress after the Reformation.
     
    #9 Herald, Mar 9, 2013
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    With who...Luther??
     
    #10 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 9, 2013
  11. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Not one person. The Reformation focused the attention where it should of been, on the Bible. The Reformation was not monolithic. Luther played a part, but just a part.
     
    #11 Herald, Mar 9, 2013
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I agree with the biblical focus...but not with all the Reformational wranglings. That took no focus on the Christ of the Bible...sorry to say
     
    #12 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 9, 2013
  13. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    The Reformation was just the crack of the starters gun. If you look at the body of theology that was produced in the 16th and 17th centuries, it is staggering. I wasn't referring just to the date the Reformation started (commonly seen as Luther's posting of his 95 theses), but the what occurred subsequent to the Reformation.
     
    #13 Herald, Mar 9, 2013
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Like the reformers were to rome, I think reformed baptists are to general baptists like the reformers were to the anabaptists. Look here on BB. We pull from the reformers,and they are opposed by many of the various strains.Even the founders in the SBC get resistance.
     
    #14 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2013
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The information is either true or not. That book was written over 150 years ago. It shows the belief system of the early church fathers. They did not believe in Original Sin as Augustine did.

    The early church fathers believed in a physical depravity rather than a moral depravity. They believed because of the fall man was more prone to sin, but they believed men retained free will and could choose to obey God.

    They did not believe babies were born guilty of sin, but believed all persons became guilty of sin when they committed personal sin.

    You started the thread, that is what nearly ALL of the early church fathers without exception believed until Augustine came along.
     
    #15 Winman, Mar 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2013
  16. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    And I shared with you quotes from Apostolic fathers who predated Augustine on the doctrine of original sin. Your source is either wrong or you read it wrong. I quoted from the Apostolic fathers themselves.
     
    #16 Herald, Mar 9, 2013
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, and if you read that article in full you will see at least a dozen or more statements from the early church fathers that show they did not believe in Original Sin as Augustine did.

    Those quotes you posted are misleading. As I told you before, the ECF believed in a physical depravity. They believed that men and all creation came under a corruption which caused man to be more prone to sin.

    They DID NOT believe as Augustine did that Adam's sin passed on all men. They DID NOT believe babies were born dead in sin.

    If you sincerely want the truth you will find this to be true. The ECF were absolutely NOT Calvinists by any stretch of the imagination and were far more Arminian (actually, very semi-Pelagian) in their beliefs.

    That is historical fact whether you like it or not. It is not an agenda to tell people THE TRUTH.
     
    #17 Winman, Mar 9, 2013
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The fact that many held errors as some you post does not change the biblical truth.
    The ECF lead the way into Roman error....so what is gained by looking and reading their wrong ideas. Many believed truth then as now, and we just do not have many writings until later on with the printing press being invented. You are beating a dead horse.
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2013
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I love the way you set yourself up as judge and jury as to what is correct, and what is error. :laugh:

    Has it ever crossed your mind for even one second that it is POSSIBLE that it is YOU that is in error?

    The ECF did not believe in Original Sin as Augustine taught whatsoever. That is an historical fact. When Augustine argued OS from Romans 5:12 MANY disagreed with his interpretation, especially the Eastern church which used (and understood) Greek texts. Augustine did not know Greek well and relied on a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" in Romans 5:12, which Augustine interpreted to mean Adam. The Greek speaking theologians disagreed and do to this day.

    Simply insisting you are right all the time does not make it so. :laugh:
     
    #19 Winman, Mar 9, 2013
  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    For those who are sincerely interested in what the early church fathers before Augustine believed, this is an excellent video. It is nearly an hour long, but very interesting. You will see many dozens of quotes from the early church fathers AND scholars who have studied this subject.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLF-llpFX0
     
    #20 Winman, Mar 9, 2013
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