The OT still counts

[Luke2427]

There is this popular notion that the Old Testament represents an effort on God's part to save people one way and, when God failed miserably at that, he brought in this new and better way. Since he has done that, you can do with the old way what God has done with it- abandon it.

This leads to this notion that you base your faith and practice strictly on the New Testament alone with special emphasis on the "red letters."

It's how Bill O'Reily justifies not condemning homosexuality. He says, "Jesus never mentioned it," as if that makes God ambiguous on the issue. Pardon my carnality here but I find myself wanting to scream at the TV, "SO THE HECK WHAT!?!?!" Since when did we so narrow the application of the Scriptures to just the NT, or WORSE, to just the words in "red letters"?!?!?!

NOTHING in the OT has been done away with except those things that were contextually only intended for national Israel (kill the canaanites, no pork, etc...) and those things that were ceremonial which Jesus fulfilled.

The moral law of God is still in effect as much as it ever was- perhaps more so. It is no LESS a sin to commit adultery today than it was when steam still rose from the stone tablets of Sinai.

The death penalty is as appropriate today as it was when the flood waters were still in recession in Genesis 9.

Tithing is still as much expected as it was when Malachi's pen was still moist with the ink that gave us our last OT book.

The Lord's Day is the Sabbath- yes, there are still TEN commandments.

The law no more made people righteous in Moses' day than it does today.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. That was as true for Able, Abraham, Joshua and David as it is for you.

There is not this big disconnect between the testaments. The New stands on top of the Old and they are inextricably linked. The Old flows into the New and the New fulfills the Old.

Until you see that, you are going to make TONS of interpretive errors as you study and, worse, teach the Bible

 

[saturneptune]

There is this popular notion that the Old Testament represents an effort on God's part to save people one way and, when God failed miserably at that, he brought in this new and better way. Since he has done that, you can do with the old way what God has done with it- abandon it.

This leads to this notion that you base your faith and practice strictly on the New Testament alone with special emphasis on the "red letters."

It's how Bill O'Reily justifies not condemning homosexuality. He says, "Jesus never mentioned it," as if that makes God ambiguous on the issue. Pardon my carnality here but I find myself wanting to scream at the TV, "SO THE HECK WHAT!?!?!" Since when did we so narrow the application of the Scriptures to just the NT, or WORSE, to just the words in "red letters"?!?!?!

NOTHING in the OT has been done away with except those things that were contextually only intended for national Israel (kill the canaanites, no pork, etc...) and those things that were ceremonial which Jesus fulfilled.

The moral law of God is still in effect as much as it ever was- perhaps more so. It is no LESS a sin to commit adultery today than it was when steam still rose from the stone tablets of Sinai.

The death penalty is as appropriate today as it was when the flood waters were still in recession in Genesis 9.

Tithing is still as much expected as it was when Malachi's pen was still moist with the ink that gave us our last OT book.

The Lord's Day is the Sabbath- yes, there are still TEN commandments.

The law no more made people righteous in Moses' day than it does today.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. That was as true for Able, Abraham, Joshua and David as it is for you.

There is not this big disconnect between the testaments. The New stands on top of the Old and they are inextricably linked. The Old flows into the New and the New fulfills the Old.

Until you see that, you are going to make TONS of interpretive errors as you study and, worse, teach the Bible

Luke
IMO, the purpose of the OT is to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, and the purpose of the NT is to reveal Jesus Christ. They work in perfect harmony according to God's plan, and there is no contridiction, only our own misunderstanding.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke
IMO, the purpose of the OT is to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, and the purpose of the NT is to reveal Jesus Christ. They work in perfect harmony according to God's plan, and there is no contridiction, only our own misunderstanding.

Yes, but the popular notion in evangelicalism today is that we are just supposed to follow the words of Jesus and basically ignore the Old Testament.

This is terrible hermeneutics.

 

[convicted1]

Well, the Law died when Jesus arose. We don't have the OT and NT concurrently, but rather, the NT supercedes the OT.

Hebrews 8:6-13

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Law, which could not bring justification, was weak, in that it dealt with the fleshly man.....iow, it was a fleshly covenant that God had with the Israelites. The Law could only bring condemnation, and never, justification.

Gal. 4:1-5

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Now, if the OT still counts, then why did Christ have to redeem....by us back.....from being under the Law?

Gal. 3:21-29

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The only thing the Law can do is condemn and bring sinners to Christ. Grace, and Grace alone, places anyone in Christ. When we were sinners, we were under the Law, because it was a curse for us, in that none of us could keep it. It is what brings us to, not into, but to, Christ. That's the only thing the Law can do, is condemn and bring us to Him.

Gal. 4:22-31

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

OT people such as Jacob and Esau, and Isaac and Ishmael were symbols of the flesh(Ishmael and Esau) and the spirit/soul of man(Jacob and Isaac). The flesh can never obtain righteouness before God because He deals with the souls of mankind, and not their flesh. And after salvation takes place, the flesh buffets the soul till we die. Esau wept and never received it, because he sold his birth right, and plus, he was a symbol of the flesh, and the flesh can never obtain it until Jesus Christ returns and changes the fleshly body into a spiritual body and reunites that body with the soul that is in the Cloud with Him.

Col. 2:13-15

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The "blotting out the handwritting of orinances that was against us", is referring to the Law. He nailed the Law to cross via His flesh.

Gal. 3:10-14

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So, in summation, when Christ died, was buried, and then arose, He abolished the Law, and we now live under the Grace Covenant.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, the Law died when Jesus arose. We don't have the OT and NT concurrently, but rather, the NT supercedes the OT.



The Law, which could not bring justification, was weak, in that it dealt with the fleshly man.....iow, it was a fleshly covenant that God had with the Israelites. The Law could only bring condemnation, and never, justification.





Now, if the OT still counts, then why did Christ have to redeem....by us back.....from being under the Law?




The only thing the Law can do is condemn and bring sinners to Christ. Grace, and Grace alone, places anyone in Christ. When we were sinners, we were under the Law, because it was a curse for us, in that none of us could keep it. It is what brings us to, not into, but to, Christ. That's the only thing the Law can do, is condemn and bring us to Him.






OT people such as Jacob and Esau, and Isaac and Ishmael were symbols of the flesh(Ishmael and Esau) and the spirit/soul of man(Jacob and Isaac). The flesh can never obtain righteouness before God because He deals with the souls of mankind, and not their flesh. And after salvation takes place, the flesh buffets the soul till we die. Esau wept and never received it, because he sold his birth right, and plus, he was a symbol of the flesh, and the flesh can never obtain it until Jesus Christ returns and changes the fleshly body into a spiritual body and reunites that body with the soul that is in the Cloud with Him.





The "blotting out the handwritting of orinances that was against us", is referring to the Law. He nailed the Law to cross via His flesh.






So, in summation, when Christ died, was buried, and then arose, He abolished the Law, and we now live under the Grace Covenant.

I'll deal with this in more detail later but for now:

1. Do you think the law was ever intended to make people righteous?

2. Do you think the OT saints did not live under Grace?

3. Do you think they got to heaven very differently than we do?

4. Do you not understand that all men throughout history who have ever been saved have had to be redeemed from the curse of the law? This is not a New Testament thing.

 

[convicted1]

1. Do you think the law was ever intended to make people righteous?

Nope. The Law was God's way of showing mankind that regardless how hard they try/tried, they can not/could not keep themselves.

2. Do you think the OT saints did not live under Grace?

Well, Noah found Grace in God's eyes, but he, nor his descendents were under the Grace Covenant. This, however, was pre-Law, but still, they were looking towards Jesus Christ and the cross.

3. Do you think they got to heaven very differently than we do?

Nope.

4. Do you not understand that all men throughout history who have ever been saved have had to be redeemed from the curse of the law? This is not a New Testament thing.

I agree with this. However, those who died prior to Christ's coming, died looking towards the cross.

Now, here's two verses I want you to get a grasp of, and then come back to the deabte:


Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[convicted1]

And here's another passage to chew on Brother Luke:

2 Cor. 3:6-18

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

"Written and engraven in stones" is referring to the Law. The "letter killeth" is also referring to the Law. "But the Spirit giveth life" is referring to the Grace Covenant. Sinners are under the Law, because they are in a state of condemnation. The Law, it can only condemn, and bring us to Christ, not into Christ. Only Grace can place us in Christ.

 

[saturneptune]

Yes, we are under grace and not the law during this era. However, I do not think you can say the OT is not there or ignore the teachings in it. There should be no conflict between the two. They are in perfect harmony.

 

[gb93433]

So much of what Jesus taught in the Gospels had its origin in the OT. Even discipleship had its origin in Judaism. Jesus selected his disciples from an area that was known for discipleship. When Jesus said, ""You did not choose Me but I chose you, . . . " they knew exactly what he meant because of their understanding of what it meant to be the disciple of a rabbi in Judaism and how they were selected.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is this popular notion that the Old Testament represents an effort on God's part to save people one way and, when God failed miserably at that, he brought in this new and better way. Since he has done that, you can do with the old way what God has done with it- abandon it.

This leads to this notion that you base your faith and practice strictly on the New Testament alone with special emphasis on the "red letters."

It's how Bill O'Reily justifies not condemning homosexuality. He says, "Jesus never mentioned it," as if that makes God ambiguous on the issue. Pardon my carnality here but I find myself wanting to scream at the TV, "SO THE HECK WHAT!?!?!" Since when did we so narrow the application of the Scriptures to just the NT, or WORSE, to just the words in "red letters"?!?!?!

NOTHING in the OT has been done away with except those things that were contextually only intended for national Israel (kill the canaanites, no pork, etc...) and those things that were ceremonial which Jesus fulfilled.

The moral law of God is still in effect as much as it ever was- perhaps more so. It is no LESS a sin to commit adultery today than it was when steam still rose from the stone tablets of Sinai.

The death penalty is as appropriate today as it was when the flood waters were still in recession in Genesis 9.

Tithing is still as much expected as it was when Malachi's pen was still moist with the ink that gave us our last OT book.

The Lord's Day is the Sabbath- yes, there are still TEN commandments.

The law no more made people righteous in Moses' day than it does today.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. That was as true for Able, Abraham, Joshua and David as it is for you.

There is not this big disconnect between the testaments. The New stands on top of the Old and they are inextricably linked. The Old flows into the New and the New fulfills the Old.

Until you see that, you are going to make TONS of interpretive errors as you study and, worse, teach the Bible

The OT was inspired by God to us as much as the NT was, its just that we see it in the principles of How God works, How he "operates", and learn from those example and principles in there, but MUST read the OT thru lens of the Cross of the NT, as we are NOT under the law, but now under grace!

 

[Luke2427]

And here's another passage to chew on Brother Luke:



"Written and engraven in stones" is referring to the Law. The "letter killeth" is also referring to the Law. "But the Spirit giveth life" is referring to the Grace Covenant. Sinners are under the Law, because they are in a state of condemnation. The Law, it can only condemn, and bring us to Christ, not into Christ. Only Grace can place us in Christ.

The letter has always killed. That is not unique to the NT.

So why the difference?

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, we are under grace and not the law during this era. However, I do not think you can say the OT is not there or ignore the teachings in it. There should be no conflict between the two. They are in perfect harmony.

How were THEY under the law differently than we are?

 

[Luke2427]

Well, the Law died when Jesus arose. We don't have the OT and NT concurrently, but rather, the NT supercedes the OT.

What do YOU mean when you say the law died?

How did it die?

In what way is it dead to us in contradistinction from being alive to them?

 

[gb93433]

The letter has always killed. That is not unique to the NT.

So why the difference?

There is the spirit in which God gave the OT Law. The religious folks had disregarded that. That is what Jesus addressed in the SOM. Just as a judge can go by the letter of the law it must also be tempered by the spirit of the law.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Luke, I am not goining through this again with you. You can reread my original posts and take it from there.


What about "The Law and Prophets were until John, and since then, the Kingdom of Heaven is preached, and man presseth into it"?

What about "If righteousness cometh by the Law, then Christ is dead in vain?

 

[convicted1]

Here's another passage to chew on Brother Luke:

Rom. 7:1-6

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We become dead to the Law by the body of Christ. When we were sinners, we were under bondage, condemnation, etc. When we are saved and placed in Christ, the yoke of bondage, condemnation, sin, etc. is broken.

 

[convicted1]

And another one:

Eph. 2:14-17

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Again, Christ took away the curse, which was the Law. We, who are of the body of Christ, have become dead to the Law, and now live under the Grace Covenant.

 

[kyredneck]

There is this popular notion that the Old Testament represents an effort on God's part to save people one way and, when God failed miserably at that, he brought in this new and better way......

I was raised in a strong fundamentalist, Scofield brand dispensational SB Church and this is the very notion I had acquired as a youngster.

IS DISPENSATIONALISM PROPER BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION?

Yes, but the popular notion in evangelicalism today is that we are just supposed to follow the words of Jesus and basically ignore the Old Testament.

This is terrible hermeneutics.

You better believe it's terrible hermeneutics.

52 And he said unto them, Therefore every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Mt 13

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him;
24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, Ro 4

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope. Ro 15:4

For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. Is it for the oxen that God careth, or saith he it assuredly for our sake? Yea, for our sake it was written: because he that ploweth ought to plow in hope, and he that thresheth, to thresh in hope of partaking. 1 Cor 9:9,10

Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. 1 Cor 10:11

15 And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.
17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. 1 Tim 3

7 The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: In keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults. Ps 19

 

[kyredneck]

And another one:



Again, Christ took away the curse, which was the Law. We, who are of the body of Christ, have become dead to the Law, and now live under the Grace Covenant.

and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5:29

for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil; 2 Cor 5:10 YLT

Willis, on what grounds will 'good and evil' be defined at the judgment?

 

[Crabtownboy]

What do YOU mean when you say the law died?

How did it die?

In what way is it dead to us in contradistinction from being alive to them?

If you are still under the law then you are not under grace. Tough place to be as no one can follow the law perfectly. Thank God for Christ and grace that frees us from the law.