Featured Preceding Grace & Divine Providence - the Truth, “within a hairs breadth of Calvinism

Hi Ben, sorry you feel like avoiding actual discussion of scripture, because those holding alternate views must be irrational. Jesus said something about getting the log out of our own eye before we tried to clear up the vision of another.

To restate my view, Revelatory Grace, the milk of the gospel is sufficient when coupled with believers filled with the Spirit as witnesses, those who till the ground, plant the seed, and water, to open the hearts of those who are "of My sheep."

Rather than "Total Spiritual Inability" scripture teaches the Fall resulted in our being conceived in a separated from God spiritual state, a sinful state, corrupted and predisposed to sin. In this fallen state, spiritually dead meaning unable to do any works to obtain the righteousness of God, we have only limited spiritual ability. We cannot understand some spiritual things, spiritual meat, because to understand spiritual meat, we need to be indwelt with the Spirit of God. If we look at 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 we see that the natural man (fallen and unregenerate) cannot understand the "things of the Spirit of God." To add "all" so it reads cannot understand "all things of the Spirit of God" would be a reasonable inference looking at this verse in isolation. However if we read the passage, we see in verse 3:1 where Paul had to speak to the babes in Christ as "men of flesh" teaching men of flesh can understand the milk, which refers to the fundamental things of the gospel. So in context, the "things of the Spirit of God" should be understood to refer to spiritual meat only, thus "some things of the Spirit of God is the correct view of the verse.

Peace

 

I will modify this for the sake of clarity....[your premise is bogus] Your insisting on using language cals do not use does not lend itself to a solution.

ANY BIBLICAL CALVINIST-{ABC} While God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass,He has also ordained the means to accomplish the ordained end. To say that God determines all things is an attempt to blame God for the sinful behavior of fallen sinful mankind.

So if you are really trying to ask if God is Sovereign over even the evil acts of sinful men we do not have too look too far, we can see the most evil act ever committed among men......

22 `Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;

23this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;

24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,


And again....the scripture provides all we need to know for life and godliness
like right here;
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.


Notice my friend Benjamin...the evil acts of sinful men were a part of God's ordained purpose. Peter does NOT speak of carnal logic, debate fallacies, etc. He by the Spirit explains how the evil men rage against God and His electing Covenant love......HE DOES SO BY QUOTING SCRIPTURE...not logically debate formulas.....nope...he quotes from Psalm2

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

Why does he refer to the heathen rage as ...VAIN THINGS??

because they stand opposed to God's eternal purpose which cannot in any way be diminished...dan 4 psalm 115 deut 32


35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.


4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

[ABC]-That would be Adam,whose fall into sin and death condemned the whole of mankind to be bound over to sin and death...Rom5:212-21

[ABC]- sure you can ...just stop whining about debate fallacies and reconcile all the scriptures together,not just the six or seven you misuse.here are some that might help get you started;

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

[ABC]- No problem my friend...believers have always done that....

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


So then my friend, lay down the weapons of your warfare,serve God and confess Him openly

 

Post 44 was my response.....You cannot seem to grasp this...maybe it was the scriptures that confused you....:laugh::wavey:

 

Prevenient Grace has been shown to be non-existent in scripture, with no response from the proponent other than to say "Van is an irrational Open Theist" when in fact, I am no more an Open Theist than every Arminian. So the charge is just a dodge to avoid defending the indefensible.

Folks, anytime a proponent of doctrine pretends he or she cannot present a defense because of some fault in the opponent, the man behind the curtain has been exposed.

 

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Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Post 44 was my response.....You cannot seem to grasp this...maybe it was the scriptures that confused you....

I knew you could not handle scriptural interaction, but I wanted to give you the opportunity.Your lack of response is understandable.You hide behind your silly and spiritually useless debate fantasies and your failure to respond confirms this.
So you call names and avoid real discussion,...maybe someday.

 

I found it and had answered it.I see you have nothing.....you can be left to your own devices now,:thumbs::sleeping_2:

 

You can keep all of these nonsense filled posts...we want scripture, not page after page of this...

 

Prevenient Grace was derived via eisegesis, not exegesis. Total Spiritual Inability was poured into scripture and then Prevenient Grace was poured in to fix it. Folly

 

Benjamin

Thanks B...I will now take a look.This post did have some scripture but if I recall Agedman was helping you out already, and doing quite well...I enjoyed his sound and accurate response:thumbsup:

I will as I did previously help walk you through the scriptures you are trying to abuse to conform to your debate world.... Iwas going to leave you to your rhetoric,however you did offer some scripture to Agedman so I have reconsidered.....As I am in a Good Mood in Kingman ARIZ....having escaped from LA:laugh:

The scriptures offered in the links I offer....you have not once answered , so I figure you might be secretly learning despite your bluster:wavey:

So I Will respond as requested...but only because we are friends:thumbs: You wrote;

It is a wonderful text that can easily be tied in to Jn 6:37-44,and Jn 17.
that however is another whole thread.

Many Cals how explained to you that the term determinism leads to theological fatalism that all of us reject.We explained that to you, but you keep patching up that strawman terminology trying to insure that you can beat it up one more time...lol...so you are answering questions no one is asking...lol,,,,go ahead Don Quixote !!!! Go get em...

Every believer comes through faith. It is never said to be because of faith however....so you commit two errors here.You are denying being born from above through the Spirit's work of regeneration...giving a new heart as the New Covenant promises...


25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Yes Jesus said that...right after He described those who come to Him as those given to Him by The Father....you left that part off....

Yes...that is wonderful

No..we are not surprised at all.When the scripture speaks of persons it is quite common in the english language to use the word ...You.
We do nothing until the Spirit regenerates us....{there is another word that is used alot} shocking!

,

You and your anti-cal posse as usual deny the reality of the Fall into Sin ans death.Adam was not slightly wounded but dead indeed at the fall.
No man seeks god as a consequence...No man, Not one....

see part 2....

 

part2

There is no free will....man being bound in sin....determinism is again your false philosophical term that you want to beat up...address the scriptures please.

The Bereans in Acts 17 searched the scriptures daily...to see if it was so...I do not see them dwelling on debate fallacies...just scripture.
the truth of God is found in scripture.

This is your idol and warped philosophical construct,Biblical truth is indeed revealed or concealed by God.You disparage this all the time, you and Winman ridicule the Spirits illumination to believers... You mock and call it special enlightment, winman has in times past mocked at it...But I will stay with scripture:
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You can keep your carnal reasoning....and your worldly wisdom which you refer to as
"logic to come to truth" or to draw out truth...whatever you think that means.

You chant deut32:4...as if it was quite mystical, then you ascribe your own philosophy to subjectively give what you think it means. be specific, and do not cop-out with some vague reference to jn 1;9....or romans 1 :20

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.


This is profane.

actually...do not chop off vs 3-11 as it tells the full story,,,not the one you want to slide in .

What is shameful is your distorting it like you do in your post.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

verses 3-11 already explained it...but you reject it....that is on you.

there it is again...lol

We explained that to you already....