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Postmil facts

L

Luke2427

Active Member
#1. Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

#2. Jesus commissioned us to baptize the nations.

#3. Jesus said that the ACTUAL Kingdom of God (he did not say some twisted version of it) would start small like a mustard seed and grow to be the largest of all Kingdoms on earth.

#4. There are more Christians on the earth and in more countries on the earth today than ever before- certainly more than there were a thousand years ago; and CERTAINLY more than there were two thousand years ago.

#5. Nothing could be clearer than the fact that Jesus prophecies about returning and hardly finding faith on the earth and finding the world in chaos were about his returning in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. He even set the context of such prophecies as when "no stone of the temple will be left upon another."

#6. Life is better today for a larger percentage of the world's population than it was when dissidents were fed alive to lions by the most civilized of all the nations on earth two thousand years ago.

#7. We are not there yet. Yes, there is tremendous suffering in the world today- but not on the global scale it was two thousand years ago. We are getting there, and we will get there. It may be another thousand years, but eventually "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters of the sea" and gates of hell will be beat back by the Gospel until the earth is a practical utopia. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.

#8. That ought to be part of the impetus behind your efforts in evangelism.

#9. The postmil hope moved the likes of William Carey (the father of the modern missions movement), Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, David Brainerd, the Puritans, John Wesley and even Charles Finney to take large chunks of the world for Christ in their day. WE COULD USE A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT THEY HAD IN OUR CULTURE TODAY.
 
S

saturneptune

New Member
Luke2427 said:
#1. Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

#2. Jesus commissioned us to baptize the nations.

#3. Jesus said that the ACTUAL Kingdom of God (he did not say some twisted version of it) would start small like a mustard seed and grow to be the largest of all Kingdoms on earth.

#4. There are more Christians on the earth and in more countries on the earth today than ever before- certainly more than there were a thousand years ago; and CERTAINLY more than there were two thousand years ago.

#5. Nothing could be clearer than the fact that Jesus prophecies about returning and hardly finding faith on the earth and finding the world in chaos were about his returning in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. He even set the context of such prophecies as when "no stone of the temple will be left upon another."

#6. Life is better today for a larger percentage of the world's population than it was when dissidents were fed alive to lions by the most civilized of all the nations on earth two thousand years ago.

#7. We are not there yet. Yes, there is tremendous suffering in the world today- but not on the global scale it was two thousand years ago. We are getting there, and we will get there. It may be another thousand years, but eventually "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters of the sea" and gates of hell will be beat back by the Gospel until the earth is a practical utopia. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.

#8. That ought to be part of the impetus behind your efforts in evangelism.

#9. The postmil hope moved the likes of William Carey (the father of the modern missions movement), Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, David Brainerd, the Puritans, John Wesley and even Charles Finney to take large chunks of the world for Christ in their day. WE COULD USE A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT THEY HAD IN OUR CULTURE TODAY.
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I have done a lot of reading and thinking about the postmil view as of late. Your points are closer to reality and Scripture than any of the other positions, IMO. The world is certainly not perfect, but then again, there was nothing perfect or magical about the "good old days" either. The "good old days" is one of the biggest myths ever invented.

I well remember the nonsense of the late 60s and early 70s when Hal Lindsey was making a fortune with his books like the "Late, Great, Planet Earth." Then, the fairy tale "Left Behind" appeared. Remember the predictions from back then. By now, we were suppose to be so crowded every square inch of earth was going to have nose to nose people, the water was suppose to be poison, and the air was suppose to be 100% CO2. The 1967 war then the 1973 war was the start of the countdown to the Tribulation and Rapture.

You are right. There are more Christians today than ever. They may not like traditional music, and they may not be flocking to the churches of old that specializes in pew sitters and gossips, but there are many, many, thriving, growing churches. The Lord is keeping His promise to preserve His New Testament local churches.

I realize we do not understand everything clearly, like the relationship of a Tribulation to the postmil position, but premil reads like a fairy tale (once upon a time many people disappeared) and amil is a vague concept no where supported in Scripture. I do know one thing for sure, the Lord has all this planned out, is in control, and His plan is right on time.

If there is one thing that nags at me about things getting better, and it is not a really big point, is the growth of the Muslim faith.

Thanks for your post. It is very well organized and thought out.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
#1. Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

#2. Jesus commissioned us to baptize the nations.

#3. Jesus said that the ACTUAL Kingdom of God (he did not say some twisted version of it) would start small like a mustard seed and grow to be the largest of all Kingdoms on earth.

#4. There are more Christians on the earth and in more countries on the earth today than ever before- certainly more than there were a thousand years ago; and CERTAINLY more than there were two thousand years ago.

#5. Nothing could be clearer than the fact that Jesus prophecies about returning and hardly finding faith on the earth and finding the world in chaos were about his returning in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. He even set the context of such prophecies as when "no stone of the temple will be left upon another."

#6. Life is better today for a larger percentage of the world's population than it was when dissidents were fed alive to lions by the most civilized of all the nations on earth two thousand years ago.

#7. We are not there yet. Yes, there is tremendous suffering in the world today- but not on the global scale it was two thousand years ago. We are getting there, and we will get there. It may be another thousand years, but eventually "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters of the sea" and gates of hell will be beat back by the Gospel until the earth is a practical utopia. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.

#8. That ought to be part of the impetus behind your efforts in evangelism.

#9. The postmil hope moved the likes of William Carey (the father of the modern missions movement), Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, David Brainerd, the Puritans, John Wesley and even Charles Finney to take large chunks of the world for Christ in their day. WE COULD USE A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT THEY HAD IN OUR CULTURE TODAY.
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Who wa the beast that all the earth worshipped then?
when did the Apsotles all receive glorified bodies in AD 70?
Why did God say that he is NOT done with national israel, that their King would return to earth to reign and rule out from jerusalem?
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
Who wa the beast that all the earth worshipped then?
when did the Apsotles all receive glorified bodies in AD 70?
Why did God say that he is NOT done with national israel, that their King would return to earth to reign and rule out from jerusalem?
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Nero, context, the church is Israel.
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When you begin with the presupposition ie Christ already returned, the you need to apply a false date to it in order to make it work.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
L

Luke2427

Active Member
webdog said:
Irenaeus would disagree with the early dating of Revelation.
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"Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96). This date is determined by the following statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

There are things about this statement that need to be noted. First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John). Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was seen" — is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96, during the last part Domitian's reign. Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name of anti-christ, or the book itself and we do not know if he meant that the book was written at that time or not. Furthermore, it comes to us through three people separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is hear-say.

This statement, even with all of this uncertainty, is the only evidence used to support the "late date" theory. It has been accepted by generations of people without really questioning it or examining it in light of the book itself. The late date has been passed on to us in the same way it was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down by tradition…" Tradition is not the way to interpret Scripture.

Another statement by Irenaeus seems to indicate the earlier date also. In his fifth book, he speaks as follows concerning the Apocalypse of John and the number of the name of the Antichrist: "As these things are so, and this number is found in all the approved and ancient copies." Domitian's reign was almost in his own day, but now he speaks of the Revelation being written in ancient copies. His statement at least gives some doubt as to the "vision" being seen in 95 AD which was almost in his day, and even suggests a time somewhat removed from his own day for him to consider the copies available to him as ancient."
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Iconoclast said:
I had always heard of the late date until about ten years ago,then i learned that it was not as solid as it seemed to be suggested by these men.

John being told to measure the temple would have not made sense if the temple was no longer there:confused::confused:;)
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/Dating/Early/index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLLE4srpZOA
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It does in a futurist scenario. They are already preparing the priestly garments and utensils in Israel as I type this.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Iconoclast said:
Could you show postmill teaching that says this.
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No, he doesn't ever bother to "show" anything. He just drive-by posts inflammatory statements.

He has a god-complex thinking that if it comes from him it must be truth and there is no need to support it and everyone should just accept it because he said it.
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is the nobleman who was to receive a kingdom, still giving out pounds and saying occupy until I come or has he received the kingdom, returned and called his servants unto himself and given them ruling positions according as to how they used their pounds while he was gone to receive the kingdom?

Are we currently pre to ruling with him?
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
Revelation was not written in the 90's.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html
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Good article, I've not seen that one before. Add to his list:

Revelation 2-3/Letters to the Seven Churches = For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1:3

....Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. Rev 22:10
 
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