Moderation is what helps- not teetotalism

[Luke2427]

Sure it is.....dont believe me, then get a buzz & then go over to a cop shop & ask for a Breathalyzer test. Tell me what they tell you.

1. Cops don't define terms. I appreciate cops who do their job but they are not educated linguists who get to define terms in the English language.

2. Most cops would just say that buzz is not drunk but it is the law that you cannot drive once your blood alcohol level is at a certain percentage. Drunk has nothing to do with it. The law is the law and they would say, "Sir, I'm no linguist nor a scientist. I do not know if you are safe to drive or not. All I know is it is my job to enforce this law written by people much smarter than me."

3. Cops were not around in Bible times to help define the word "drunk" even if they COULD define it.

You do by this very post. You think your cute by saying a buzz isnt an altered state on the way to a full drunk.... Please, whats your freakin problem. What kinda arse backwards analogy is " like removing your coat" ..... Grow the Frig up.

You grow up. All you do here is GUSH. You don't have a point. You are not making a case. You are just being emotional- up and down, in and out. You are led by your feelings and not facts. You grow up.

People that drink have real problems

That is an idiotic statement. Hundreds of MILLIONS of people drink and are not drunkards.

WHOLE NATIONS drink wine and beer like we in the South drink sweet tea and those nations function quite well.

To say that "people who drink have problems" is idiotic, unsupportable emotional bull.

& your treating this like a contest between DHK, Rev, Arron & yourself and you gotta take all the marbles, right. Well dont work like that. Have some compassion for these people & develop some humility & if you got the balls to survive alcoholism then use that survival mechanism to help others.

The way to help people is by helping them not be morons.

My wife was raised in an IFB super strict fundamentalist Christian school.

They preached against alcohol like it was Satanic.

Most of her class that she graduated with are a bunch of drunkards.

This nation is one of the worst in the world for drunkenness because we are plagued with stupid fundamentalists who make taboo something that God commends.

All the while nations who laugh at the ignorance of fundamentalists who preach against moderation do not have anywhere NEAR the alcoholism problems we do.

The way to fix mess is to preach THE TRUTH. Not be a gusher and led by emotions, not preach extrabiblical traditions- but the TRUTH.

Alcohol was not my family's problem- DRUNKENNESS WAS.

Preach against DRUNKENNESS and don't conflate it with moderation- THAT'S how you HELP PEOPLE, sir.

 

[Herald]

The way to help people is by helping them not be morons.

Rick, that was not necessary. Listen. There are many - many - on this board with whom I disagree. Some of them I cannot even dialog with anymore and have placed them on ignore (and they have reciprocated). But let us not stoop to calling them morons. Let us win the battle for the truth based on espousing the truth itself. Remember our own past. How often did we reject the truth, even viscerally, until God in His providence rescued us from error? Let the truth be the offense, not us.

 

[Aaron]

Moderation is what helps- not teetotalism

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

[Revmitchell]

Moderation is good so long as it does not exceed any level of intoxication at all. Anything less than completely sober is sin.

 

[saturneptune]

Moderation is good so long as it does not exceed any level of intoxication at all. Anything less than completely sober is sin.

I agree with Luke's ideas about alcohol, but do not drink for several reasons, but one of those reasons is not because that is what the Bible teaches. I took my first clue from the way I drank in the Navy. Between the time I spent with my kids, at church, and at work, it was hardly worth the effort.

Getting back to the Navy, when I drank, I really drank. Sometimes I could not remember going back to the ship. However, that has nothing to do with those who drink without intoxication and do not hurt their witness to a weaker brother. I do not feel the need to impose my standards on others.

I see a common pattern between those that abstain and KJVO clowns. They insist on everyone else being pattern after their lives, and it is not going to happen.

 

[DHK]

That is an idiotic statement.

This nation is one of the worst in the world for drunkenness because we are plagued with stupid fundamentalists who make taboo something that God commends.

Yeah. It was one of the most "idiotic" statements I have seen.
Here are the facts.

[FONT=&quot]Members of Independent Baptist churches comprised three percent of the United States adult population according to a 2008 survey

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[FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
You are blaming the entire nation's problem of drunkenness on 3% of the adult population of the nation. Does that even sound reasonable. In the real world they would call it hate speech. In some places it is an indictable crime.

 

[Herald]

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Aaron, that presupposes a number of things.

1. Are you aware that your brother may be prone to stumbling in a specific area?

2. Are you under obligation to consider your brother if you are in your own home?

3. What qualifies as a "weaker brother" and is the weaker brother to remain as a weaker brother?

4. To what degree is Christian liberty to be checked if someone claims to be offended by your actions? For example: what is someone claims to be offended that you have a job and they don't? What if they are offended that you drive a nicer car then they do?

I think wisdom and prudence should dictate our response to the biblical command about the weaker brother. I think it would be wise not to imbibe in the presence of your brother if your brother is an alcoholic. Perhaps your brother is having severe financial troubles and your talking about your recent vacation to Europe may be a snare for him. But the supposed weaker brother also has a responsibility not to remain weak. He is to mature in these areas. He may be in the presence of unbelievers who have no qualms about drinking or bragging about their free spending ways. That brother cannot invoke the weaker brother passage. He will have to deal with the situation and conquer it by the power of the Holy Spirit and faith.

Just some things to mull over.

 

[saturneptune]

You are blaming the entire nation's problem of drunkenness on 3% of the adult population of the nation. Does that even sound reasonable. In the real world they would call it hate speech. In some places it is an indictable crime.

Luke did not say the IFB causes drunkenness. Each person is responsible for their own actions, not a group.

Maybe Luke is saying that harping on alcohol Sunday after Sunday after Sunday does nothing to change hearts away from drinking too much. In fact, it probably causes the opposite effect. Since Jesus Christ changes lives, maybe more time should be spent on the Gospel and less on do and don't rules. A changed heart through faith in Jesus Christ makes one want to stop drinking or drink without being drunk.

Memorizing a bunch of rules and trying to obey them is just what the Pharisees did. It is not going to help you get to heaven, the Gospel does.

 

[Revmitchell]

Maybe Luke is saying that harping on alcohol Sunday after Sunday after Sunday does nothing to change hearts away from drinking too much.

On that I agree pastors need to preach the whole counsel of God but stay away from beating on pet peaves.

 

[Luke2427]

Rick, that was not necessary. Listen. There are many - many - on this board with whom I disagree. Some of them I cannot even dialog with anymore and have placed them on ignore (and they have reciprocated). But let us not stoop to calling them morons. Let us win the battle for the truth based on espousing the truth itself. Remember our own past. How often did we reject the truth, even viscerally, until God in His providence rescued us from error? Let the truth be the offense, not us.

I am not calling anybody in particular a moron. I was clear that the way to help people is by helping them not be morons who have hangups about all kinds of things that they should not have hangups about.

We preach the Bible- which means we preach moderation, not abstinence.

That is how we help people.

 

[Luke2427]

Moderation is good so long as it does not exceed any level of intoxication at all. Anything less than completely sober is sin.

Once again, god has spoken.

That's like saying anything less than fully clothed in a three piece suit is nakedness.

Ridiculous.

 

[Luke2427]

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So as long as you are not in the vicinity of that weaker brother who has weird hangups then you cannot offend him.

So enjoy your liberty to yourself and with others who are not weak.

 

[Luke2427]

Yeah. It was one of the most "idiotic" statements I have seen.
Here are the facts.
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[FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
You are blaming the entire nation's problem of drunkenness on 3% of the adult population of the nation. Does that even sound reasonable. In the real world they would call it hate speech. In some places it is an indictable crime.

Its not just IFB. Its everybody IFB influences. And its not just those IFB influence- its Petnecostals and Assembly of God and SBC folks with the same backwards ideas. And its not just those who are IN those churches but those who are influenced by those who are in those churches.

I cannot tell you how many people I have tried to get in church who won't go because they were taught by some backwater church that touching alcohol is wrong.

 

[Luke2427]

Aaron, that presupposes a number of things.

1. Are you aware that your brother may be prone to stumbling in a specific area?

2. Are you under obligation to consider your brother if you are in your own home?

3. What qualifies as a "weaker brother" and is the weaker brother to remain as a weaker brother?

4. To what degree is Christian liberty to be checked if someone claims to be offended by your actions? For example: what is someone claims to be offended that you have a job and they don't? What if they are offended that you drive a nicer car then they do?

I think wisdom and prudence should dictate our response to the biblical command about the weaker brother. I think it would be wise not to imbibe in the presence of your brother if your brother is an alcoholic. Perhaps your brother is having severe financial troubles and your talking about your recent vacation to Europe may be a snare for him. But the supposed weaker brother also has a responsibility not to remain weak. He is to mature in these areas. He may be in the presence of unbelievers who have no qualms about drinking or bragging about their free spending ways. That brother cannot invoke the weaker brother passage. He will have to deal with the situation and conquer it by the power of the Holy Spirit and faith.

Just some things to mull over.

No, no. Don;t expect clarification from Aaron.

He just likes to be ambiguous so you can't pin him down and force him to admit his error.

He is NOT going to admit that so he will NOT clarify his weaker brother position.

 

[Herald]

No, no. Don;t expect clarification from Aaron.

He just likes to be ambiguous so you can't pin him down and force him to admit his error.

He is NOT going to admit that so he will NOT clarify his weaker brother position.

Rick,

I give him a chance. If he proves to be like that then at least I know for the future. Live and learn.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am not calling anybody in particular a moron. I was clear that the way to help people is by helping them not be morons who have hangups about all kinds of things that they should not have hangups about.

We preach the Bible- which means we preach moderation, not abstinence.

That is how we help people.

Well that's fine...but nobody listens to you anymore....so whether you preach abstinence, moderation, or drinking till your crapfaced...it doesn't matter. For the most part the IFB influence is shattered...it has no influence. But the scripture does. So you make too much of these people when for the most part, they are irrelevant.

 

[Luke2427]

Well that's fine...but nobody listens to you anymore....so whether you preach abstinence, moderation, or drinking till your crapfaced...it doesn't matter. For the most part the IFB influence is shattered...it has no influence. But the scripture does. So you make too much of these people when for the most part, they are irrelevant.

First of all, you are listening. That's why you responded.

Secondly, the IFB is not only alive and well, joined with it in fundamentalist philosophy is Pentecostalism which is the fastest growing Christian movement in America.

Furthermore there is a growing element in SBC that is fundamentalist. That is disturbing since the SBC is the largest Protestant denomination on earth.

Thirdly, Scripture is what we are talking about. We are talking about embracing the moderation taught in Scripture and spurning the Phariseeism of teetotalism.

 

[Aaron]

Just some things to mull over.

The topic is what helps a weaker brother. Wanna believe Paul or Rick?

 

[Aaron]

No, no. Don;t expect clarification from Aaron.

He just likes to be ambiguous so you can't pin him down and force him to admit his error.

I clarified it here.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2020964&postcount=178

 

[Aaron]

To what degree is Christian liberty to be checked if someone claims to be offended by your actions?

But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

For example: what is someone claims to be offended that you have a job and they don't? What if they are offended that you drive a nicer car then they do?

The issue is how the stronger is to respond to a weaker brother, and I will focus on the genuine matters of conscience identified by the Spirit so there can be no argument about who the weaker brother is and the issue in which he is weak.

Given, you have a brother with a conscience toward wine as an evil thing.

Given, he is weak and stumbles easily.

Question, how does the stronger help such an one?

If we take our cues from Rick, it is to mock and scorn them and worship and serve our appetites above the Lord who bought them.