Featured The Doctrine of Preservation

I provided verses where the concept of provision was presented, with man acting as the agent. I said, when this same action, providing for needs through foresight, is done by God, then it is Divine providence. OTOH, you gave one verse, Proverbs 21:1 where providence is neither mentioned or portrayed.

God's sovereign actions to sustain His creation according to His purpose makes His miracles a part of that providence. Thus your question uses Providence more narrowly,

 

Another View

I think words have meanings and when your translate those meanings into another language, you are translating words. When I read the red letter words in my Bible, I believe I am reading the words of Christ that will endure. The message and not the language is what Jesus was saying with "His words" will endure. Just as with the testimonies, it is the message and not letters arranged from right to left that will endure.

 

What is the distinction between preserving God's testimonies and words by providence versus by miracle. In the providential view, God used people to copy and store His special revelation, and He arranged circumstances such that the work product was sufficient for His purpose. Thus as the inspired words say, "all scripture is profitable for instruction and rebuke. But, human fallibility entered into the process, and therefore corruptions occurred. Sometimes, copiests, striving to be helpful added to the text. Omissions occurred. And if we include translation in the providential preservation, we have mistaken or less than the best words and phrases used which degrades the message to some degree.

On the other hand, if we are pushing miraculous preservation, then the copiests never made an error and perfectly copied the perfect originals, and those God used to miraculously translate the text, used the perfect words to convey the actual message without introducing any error.

 

Explain how the disuse of Koine Greek coming about in less than 50 years of John's last writing is "just a coincidence."

Explain how at least three distinct textual families from several far-removed locales "just happened."

Explain how an Arab sheep-herder looking for a lost sheep "stumbled across by accident" scrolls that were over 2,100 years old.

From your perspective, I guess salvation itself isn't a miracle, either, given you seem to desire miracles to have flash and glitz to them.

 

Nonsense

Again, you are simply renaming God's sovereign actions to sustain His creation as providence. Not what the word means.

I gave you the biblical meaning of providence, and supported that view with 5 verses.

1) God exercising control over the thoughts of man reflects miraculous intervention, not arranging the events in the unfixed future to fulfill foreseen needs. Strike one.

2) I supplied numerous verses, i.e. Psalm 119:152, that demonstrate God's promised providence. Strike two.

3) Your passage (Psalm 135:6-7) simply describes God's sustaining actions to provide the natural environment, whereas His actions to sustain His special revelation availability as promised is the "providence" put forth in the OP. Strike three!!!

 

I enjoy reading your posts "disconnected",
JoJ sleeps during our day, the bum :sleeping_2:

It's interesting that the word "miracle" is only rarely used in English translations, there's a reason for this; the various words used in Hebrew and Greek are better translated as "wonder", "mighty work", and "sign".

Scriptures tell us that God has been "sustaining all things by his powerful word" (Hebrews 1:3).
They also clearly communicate that God supernaturally moves among men and drives human affairs.
These actions, while divinely directed, are not considered miraculous; his guidance blends smoothly into the usual workings of nature.

But on some occasions, God intervenes into nature in what we call might rightly call a miracle.

A miracle is an intervention of God outside of the established course of nature.

Each of your examples (barring God's salvation of human kind) are interesting, even perhaps coincidental, but do not boldly proclaim God's direct intervention outside of the bounds of the nature he created.

Rob

 

Think what John is stating here is that while God is directly involved in both aspects of inspirationandpreservation of the sacred texts...

Inspiration is the product of the HolySpirit in a determined/direct fashion, as without Him directly intervening inthe writtings, could not be inerrant and infallible texts .

perserving those texts was God watching out over them in the"natural order" of things, just as He did for the jews in ester , as while he is not named there, He is providence uiseen in behind the scenes working all things out!

he made sure that copies of the originals survived, but did not inspire those copies!

 

Yes, lets agree to disagree. You are saying "Providence" means "the care, guardianship and control exercised by God." Certainly a valid and traditional meaning, but it includes His miracles. Therefore a more narrow meaning is implied by your OP. Thus providing for specific foreseen needs, such as preserving God's words and testimonies is the correct meaning of the word as used in your OP, which separates out God's contravention of natural occurrence, i.e. miracles.

I do not think anyone expressed an understanding of the implication of quoting a translation, i.e. the Septuagint, as scripture. This clearly indicates God preserved the "testimonies" in at least one translation for use by His inspired writers. Thus, at a minimum, we can say God's providential preservation of His words and testimonies includes superintending some translation done by uninspired men.

Does anyone deny this doctrine?

 

Exactly, to be providentially preserved does not mean preserved by inspiration and therefore inerrant. Just as copies of the original text in the same language were not always without error nor were the copies inspired.

Thus far, then everyone agrees that:

1) The bible teaches in at least 5 verses, that God preserves His words and testimonies in some manner.

2) God used translated versions of His words and testimonies stating they were scripture.

3) God said all scripture, which then includes at least parts of some translations, is profitable for instruction and rebuke.

The above therefore presents the actual biblical doctrine of providential preservation of scripture.

 

Doctrine of Providential Preservation of Scripture

As a Minimalist, I look at verses and ask, "What is the least that God could be saying?" If we look at Romans 15:4 we see that at least the intended message had been preserved from when it was written to when it provided its encouragement in the 1st century. We cannot draw the conclusion it was preserved perfectly, but only sufficiently for God's purpose. This does not rule out inerrancy in the original autographs, or providential preservation. It simply acknowledges the truth clearly taught by Paul.

Similarly in 2 Timothy 3:16 we see Paul teaching that the OT scriptures were trustworthy and reliable, hence preserved adequately, for instruction, and reproof. Now more can be read into it, but less cannot be claimed without loss of integrity.

Lets underline the difference between Providential and Miraculous Preservation. My understanding is "providence" refers to God "providing" for us in various ways. He established natural law and to the extent nature provides for our needs, i.e. abundant fish in the sea for food, we can thank God for His providence. But the second way God provides is by His altering or not, the unfixed future such that His purpose is fulfilled, thus needed rain may come from providential number 1 or providential number 2, but either way, we are to be thankful.

The third way God provides for us is through creative miracles, where He intervenes and causes events that had nature run its course, would not have occurred. Jesus walking on water, or arising from the dead were sign and wonder miracles to demonstrate God was the cause, rather than natural happenstance.

Now lets consider a very good verse, which supposedly supports the doctrine of Divine Preservation of Special Revelation, the Inspired Scriptures of the Old and New Testament.

Matthew 24:35 says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Here we have something that cannot be sidestepped, Christ's words refers to Special Revelation to us, and therefore will be "preserved" over time so that we may hear the gospel and believe and be saved. This was so important a teaching that we can find the very same "words" at Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33.

Another verse, and the last I will offer is Psalm 119:152. Here the text refers to "testimonies" that endure forever. Just as with Christ's words enduring, they (words and testimonies) must endure in written form. These verses in God's word specifically and clearly teach God's promise to preserve His word to the extent His purpose is fulfilled.

In summary, Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Psalm 119:152 teach the doctrine of Providential Preservation of Scripture. This includes to a degree, even some parts of some translations, as demonstrated by inspired
New Testament authors quoting the Septuagint as scripture.

God Bless

 

How do you view the differences between inspiration/providences in the scriptures , and how does this relate to bible translations?