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The local church
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Almost every reference to the word church is to a local church.EWF is possibly in a tough situation...or he is possibly making excuses for some reason. he needs to be under a local oversight as we all do to be accountable...
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
He cannot obey these commands in his present situation.
he made reference to AwPink.....all of us love Pink, but he himself admitted he errored in absenting himself from local saints. We all understand the trials and perils of being in inconsistent or weak churches. Perhaps God has called us to that very situation that we would rather avoid... the principle from Est4
14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
there is something about how and why God has ordained local churches to function....
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
21 And the eye is not able to say to the hand, I have no need of you, nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 But instead, there is [absolute] necessity for the parts of the body that are considered the more weak.
23 And those [parts] of the body which we consider rather ignoble are [the very parts] which we invest with additional honor, and our unseemly parts and those unsuitable for exposure are treated with seemliness (modesty and decorum),
24 Which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so adjusted (mingled, harmonized, and subtly proportioned the parts of) the whole body, giving the greater honor and richer endowment to the inferior parts which lack [apparent importance],
25 So that there should be no division or discord or lack of adaptation [of the parts of the body to each other], but the members all alike should have a mutual interest in and care for one another.
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Tom Butler
New Member
And the others are used mainly in an institutional or generic sense, in the same sense as "the husband is head of the wife." There is no "universal" church. The "universal" church never won a soul, never baptized anybody, never sent a missionary or took up an offering. It has no reason to exist.
:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:I agree on this holding a very very strong local church view.....on the last day there will be one assembled body...quite visible without spot or blemish.
Tom Butler
New Member
Yes, the great General Assembly. Unlike the so-called "universal church" on earth, this one will assemble and worship.
I believe we have local churches (visible assemblies with visible officers and visible ordinances and visible obedience to the Great Commission). One day when we are gathered in heaven there will also be a local church - just one, with all of the regenerate of this age.
People get into trouble confusing the invisible kingdom of God which is in the heart of all regenerate and is in seed form slowly developing over the centuries (as outlined by Jesus in Mt 13).
If a person is saved he is part of the kingdom of God. And will (eventually in heaven) be part of the local church there! But to be a part of a church now involves biblical steps and should not be confused with simply being "saved"
People get into trouble confusing the invisible kingdom of God which is in the heart of all regenerate and is in seed form slowly developing over the centuries (as outlined by Jesus in Mt 13).
If a person is saved he is part of the kingdom of God. And will (eventually in heaven) be part of the local church there! But to be a part of a church now involves biblical steps and should not be confused with simply being "saved"
Little pamphlet by Dr Edward Overbey called "The Meaning of Ecclesia in the NT" - I'll link the 60-page pdf and an excellent Sunday School resource. I don't agree with it 100% but it gets "two thumbs up" from me.
http://www.firstharrison.org/The Church of the Lord - Overbey.pdf
http://www.firstharrison.org/The Church of the Lord - Overbey.pdf
Yes but what does a local church teach....what if they are Arminian and Dispy and the individual is not. What if they teach that you can loose your salvation and you believe OSAS. What if they are not even Baptist. Do you still consider that a local church?
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Congrats...you are the first to bring up a universal church. That must really be a fixation for you Tom since you mention it soooo much. Why is that?
Congrats...you are the first to bring up a universal church. That must really be a fixation for you Tom since you mention it soooo much. Why is that?
So your saying salvation is not enough that you must belong to a local assembly or your going to hell? OK which one? The Catholic one, the Methodist one, the Anglican one, the Baptist one? Clearly you would say Baptist right? But they teach an arminian doctrine and I am a DoG believer. They have no confessions & its a church where you can loose you salvation. So that isn't my belief system.
Now are you saying I must join with these people or go to hell?
First of all, there is one true church; the Church. It was established by Christ (Col. 1:18); it is lead by Christ (Eph. 5:23); and it exists for Christ to present to Himself (Eph. 5:27). It is represented on earth through local assemblies or churches (Rev. 1:4), but those assemblies are part of a greater whole, the Church.
Tom objects to the term "universal church" on the grounds that it does nothing. That is not a valid argument and is wholly subjective. The Church, by its very existence, glorifies God and exists, as Christ's possession to, "proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Pet. 2:9).
But I digress. I did not start this thread to opine about the universal church. EWF said that there is no local church and it is that contention I want to address.
When Paul told Titus, "appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Titus 1:5) was he involving himself in local politics or the administration of the church? We never read in Paul's writings that he was concerned with politics. Paul was an Apostle of Christ, who was concerned about preaching the gospel. When he told Titus to appoint elders in every city he was telling him to be about the business of setting up proper local church administration.
In Matthew 18 our Lord gives instructions on church discipline. As discipline progresses Jesus instructs the disciples, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you as a tax collector" (Mat. 18:17). What church were they to bring such a situation to? Obviously the local church.
Tom objects to the term "universal church" on the grounds that it does nothing. That is not a valid argument and is wholly subjective. The Church, by its very existence, glorifies God and exists, as Christ's possession to, "proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Pet. 2:9).
But I digress. I did not start this thread to opine about the universal church. EWF said that there is no local church and it is that contention I want to address.
When Paul told Titus, "appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Titus 1:5) was he involving himself in local politics or the administration of the church? We never read in Paul's writings that he was concerned with politics. Paul was an Apostle of Christ, who was concerned about preaching the gospel. When he told Titus to appoint elders in every city he was telling him to be about the business of setting up proper local church administration.
In Matthew 18 our Lord gives instructions on church discipline. As discipline progresses Jesus instructs the disciples, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you as a tax collector" (Mat. 18:17). What church were they to bring such a situation to? Obviously the local church.
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I DID NOT SAY THERE IS NO LOCAL CHURCH. I said there is no local assembly that I agree with, that represents my beliefs in my community. Are we clear yet?
Ecclesia: an assembly called out for a purpose.
'Universal' has been added by the most right reverend doctors of religiosity. We are going through a new wave of universalism. It is still false doctrine. There is only: One Way, Jesus; One Truth, Jesus; One Life, Jesus.
'Local' has been added as well. 'Local' implies there is some other kind. The scripture says: the church or the churches.
"Where ever two or three of you are gathered, in My Name, there am I in the midst".
Churches still meet in houses, having had enough organized religious activity seriously conformed to this world.
"Why do you call me Lord and do not what I say?"
Adding to God's Word has serious penalties.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
'Universal' has been added by the most right reverend doctors of religiosity. We are going through a new wave of universalism. It is still false doctrine. There is only: One Way, Jesus; One Truth, Jesus; One Life, Jesus.
'Local' has been added as well. 'Local' implies there is some other kind. The scripture says: the church or the churches.
"Where ever two or three of you are gathered, in My Name, there am I in the midst".
Churches still meet in houses, having had enough organized religious activity seriously conformed to this world.
"Why do you call me Lord and do not what I say?"
Adding to God's Word has serious penalties.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
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No one is adding to God's word.
"Universal Church" and "Universalism" are two different things. "Universal Church" is a tern used to represent all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ throughout all time. "Universalism" is thr belief that all people will be saved. The latter is a rank hersey.
The passage you quoted (Mat. 18:20) is in the context of church discipline. It has nothing at all to do with the construction of the church.
"Local" does not mean a different kind, it describes the individual assembly nature of the Church.
I quoted you directly. That is what you said with a period on the end. If you misspoke, fine. But I quoted you in context.
Here is what you wrote: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2033606
So sitting with my wife and son at the table studying the Bible is scripturally a church? Otherwise I have a Lutheran church 3 blocks away and a RC church I grew up in 6 blocks away.....both local. I can take instruction from Father David & even drive into the City & go to the Opera with him and his 'friend'
Thick as a brick!?! And you ....forget it, I'm afraid whatever I say to you would be mis represented.
Apparently we have different catechisms.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James