The Fear of Calvinism in the SBC

[Thousand Hills]

I wanted to ask if the following are valid reasons for the fear of Calvinism in the SBC.

This is a reply I came across to a blog post from several years ago:

Todd: Great questions. Calvinism continues to be the popular SBC bogeyman. Here’s my take on the dislike of Calvinism in the SBC.

1. The best and most generous reason may be that they simply believe it to be false and wish to stop what they consider to be false teaching. I suspect most anti-Calvinists would place themselves in this category. But there are other reasons. Please realize these are my opinion and so are worth what opinions are worth.

2. The stereotypical public invitation has taken on almost sacramental status in the SBC, and Calvinists are not big fans of the invitation. The same can be said of revivals.

3. Calvinists evangelize, but tend not to be high pressure evangelists, as if every soul who is lost is somehow their fault.

4. The subject of alcohol throws many in the SBC into near apoplexy, and there is a bizarre fear that Calvinism is the gateway drug for introducing moderationism into the SBC.

5. Although there are some Calvinistic mega-churches, the nature of Calvinistic theology tends away from what it takes to grow mega-churches. Mega-churches and their associated personalities wield nearly all the power in the SBC denominational structure and the rise of Calvinism seems to threaten that.

6. New Calvinists can be so over the top zealous that they make themselves a perfect nuisance to everyone around them. I’ve head it called the “cage phase.” I went through it to some extent. Loose too many cage phasers into a local church, and they could certainly do damage and I’m sure it has been done. It’s not the theology that splits churches, it’s the zealots. That’s my take. Let the fur fly!

- See more at:http://sbcvoices.com/calvinism-the-new-racism-in-the-sbc/

From our recent discussions obviously #1 and #6 are big reasons for those opposed. I would add that with #1, a lot of that may be due to misunderstanding/mischaracterization of what Cals believe as is seen on here.

I did think that #4 was interesting, not sure though how widespread that thought might be though.

The biggest one that stood out to me was #5. Is a lot of the fear rooted in power and money? Surely encouragement of deeper study in the scriptures (no matter what the conclusion) wouldn't be suppressed to maintain control of the average church goer?

 

[Iconoclast]

Many pastors fear they will really have to labour in the word and doctrine instead of the little sermonettes they have been skating by with.Furthermore they fear offending the big giver in the congregation who does does not like sermons on holiness of life.So they give the old....it is all amystery...both might be true mush.

 

[Winman]

#1 is absolutely my greatest concern, I simply believe Calvinism is false doctrine.

 

[Revmitchell]

The cage stage seems to last for most of the lives of some. And the tactic of Calvinist pastors to hide their doctrine with plans on turning the church calvinist in time is a big fear. The reason for the fear is it splits churches. Just ask Germantown Baptist church in Memphis TN.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Many pastors fear they will really have to labour in the word and doctrine instead of the little sermonettes they have been skating by with.

N/M.

Furthermore they fear offending the big giver in the congregation who does does not like sermons on holiness of life.

$$$$$ :BangHead::BangHead:

So they give the old....it is all amystery...both might be true mush.

I have greater respect for someone who has integrity and is committed to what they believe in, even though I might disagree, then someone that doesn't even tackle the tough issues.

 

[Thousand Hills]

The cage stage seems to last for most of the lives of some.

Ok, this has been discussed in the other thread thisnumberisdisconnected started a few days ago.

And the tactic of Calvinist pastors to hide their doctrine with plans on turning the church calvinist in time is a big fear.

A couple of thoughts (1) I remember reading something at one time here on BB that there were Search committee guidelines circulated through the TN Baptist Convention about how to "sniff out them there evil Calvinists". (2) I think this is where I have a big problem in that most average church goers are illiterate on this matter (other than Calvinism is bad). Point being, if they know their bibles and after hearing a few sermons don't have some idea of where the man stands, then don't hire him. Instead hires (one way or the other) are often made for superficial matters.

The reason for the fear is it splits churches. Just ask Germantown Baptist church in Memphis TN.

Did a quick search and all I could find was that back in 2006, the then pastor wanted to take it from congregational led to elder led, and from what I could tell it was almost approved. Obviously he would have Calvinistic leanings. Please share more links if available.

Regardless, please don't imply that this is the only thing churches split over (there are others such as: color of carpet, the music style, the pastor's new toupee, politics, etc.)

 

[Revmitchell]

Did a quick search and all I could find was that back in 2006, the then pastor wanted to take it from congregational led to elder led, and from what I could tell it was almost approved. Obviously he would have Calvinistic leanings. Please share more links if available.

It was not almost approved the church split in half and it became a huge mess. What is this calvinistic leanings? He was I have spoken to those involved. The next pastor that came in only lasted two years because of the vitrol among the members. He did not want his family beaten up. They finally came together under their current pastor. It is a long story but the church finally has begun to heal.

Regardless, please don't imply that this is the only thing churches split over (there are others such as: color of carpet, the music style, the pastor's new toupee, politics, etc.)

Who in the world implied such a thing. Anything else churches split over is irrelevant to this discussion. It certainly does not tone down the division that is caused by calvnist pastors who try to sneak into churches to change them. Such behavior is evil.


Of course it surprises me not that a cal would try to down play such behavior. I see it every day on this board. But what you cannot do is show me a non cal pastor who has tried to sneak into a historically cal church and tried to change it.

 

[Rippon]

show me a non cal pastor who has tried to sneak into a historically cal church and tried to change it.

Calvinistic churches are creedal. Non-Calvinistic churches are not. A new pastor would have to agree with the relevant Confession of Faith such as the 1689 or 1644.

Of course in church history there have been several notable men who went against their oaths --but they were of the Presbyterian flavor such as J.Vernon McGee and Charles Finney.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinistic churches are creedal. Non-Calvinistic churches are not. A new pastor would have to agree with the relevant Confession of Faith such as the 1689 or 1644.

Of course in church history there have been several notable men who went against their oaths --but they were of the Presbyterian flavor such as J.Vernon McGee and Charles Finney.

Old School Baptists are DoG but dispense with the creedinal stuff.

 

[Rippon]

Old School Baptists are DoG but dispense with the creedinal stuff.

"Creedinal" stuff? The very first website I pulled up for Old School Baptist had a section for Doctrine and Practice. Guess what? The 1689 LBC of Faith was one of their documents that they adhere to.

 

[Rippon]

It was not almost approved the church split in half and it became a huge mess. What is this calvinistic leanings? He was I have spoken to those involved. The next pastor that came in only lasted two years because of the vitrol among the members. He did not want his family beaten up.

Of what theological persuasion was "the next pastor" may I ask? He didn't want his family beaten up?! By whom --angry Calvinists or angry non-Calvinists?

 

[preacher4truth]

But what you cannot do is show me a non cal pastor who has tried to sneak into a historically cal church and tried to change it.

Yeah, well, they'd sniff out his false teachings and attack anti-cal/arminianism in a heartbeat, then, when they find his study has shelves lined with playtex milk bottles for the sheep that would be a dead give away as well.

 

[Van]

1. The best and most generous reason may be that they simply believe it to be false and wish to stop what they consider to be false teaching. I suspect most anti-Calvinists would place themselves in this category.

As one who opposes Calvinism because it is mistaken doctrine, I would just tweak it to say anti-Calvinist doctrine, rather than rejecting any brother or sister in Christ.

2. The stereotypical public invitation has taken on almost sacramental status in the SBC, and Calvinists are not big fans of the invitation. The same can be said of revivals. I doubt many Calvinists publicly oppose periodic invitations to be reconciled to God.

3. Calvinists evangelize, but tend not to be high pressure evangelists, as if every soul who is lost is somehow their fault. Very astute. Here the claim is that Calvinists do not feel responsible for those lost.

4. The subject of alcohol throws many in the SBC into near apoplexy, and there is a bizarre fear that Calvinism is the gateway drug for introducing moderationism into the SBC. Yes, I see Calvinism as a gateway to shoddy bible study, and an acceptance of doctrine that makes scripture to no effect.

5. Although there are some Calvinistic mega-churches, the nature of Calvinistic theology tends away from what it takes to grow mega-churches. Mega-churches and their associated personalities wield nearly all the power in the SBC denominational structure and the rise of Calvinism seems to threaten that. Mega-Churches can be grown through the blessing of God, or through a cult of personality. Many large church Pastors work extra hard at keeping the love and devotion and followship focused on Christ, and not on any under-shepherd.

6. New Calvinists can be so over the top zealous that they make themselves a perfect nuisance to everyone around them. I’ve head it called the “cage phase.” I went through it to some extent. Loose too many cage phasers into a local church, and they could certainly do damage and I’m sure it has been done. It’s not the theology that splits churches, it’s the zealots. Calvinism drives a wedge into the body of believers, whether it is fostered by bully boy tactics or by deception.

 

[JonC]

Many pastors fear they will really have to labour in the word and doctrine instead of the little sermonettes they have been skating by with.

I am not sure if you mean this seriously or if I am taking this correctly. If so this exemplifies why some are cautious about Calvinism. Too often Calvinists assume those who disagree with their position exhibit a lack of biblical devotion, intellect, etc. Of course, many times the same is presented as a stereotype of Calvinists. To be fair, there are people on both sides with this unrealistic and unbiblical attitude. But this issue has absolutely no reflection on scholarship. Many pastors probably do have a fear that they will have to labor in the word and doctrine to correct the damage that some Calvinistic zealots may cause. This is #6.

I think that another reason is based on #6. Too often Calvinists are trapped within the DoG. They cannot see the multifaceted perspectives presented in Scripture because all doctrines do not necessarily and directly support DoG. They cannot fathom a God that does not prioritize to this doctrine in every thought and action. Granted….well, hopefully….this is a minority within the Calvinist camp. But they are a vocal bunch (perhaps some sense a calling to Calvinism rather than Christ and they wish to convert to Calvinism rather than Christ). That said, I do believe that of the theological systems Calvinism has the most biblical support so #1 isn't an issue with me.

 

[Rippon]

3. Calvinists evangelize, but tend not to be high pressure evangelists, as if every soul who is lost is somehow their fault. Very astute. Here the claim is that Calvinists do not feel responsible for those lost.

Do you think that the Holy Spirit convicts or does it rest in the hands of a high pressure salesman? Back in my Plymouth Brethren days I remember as a boy we had somehow been duped into inviting an "evangelist" to our gathering. It was downright embarrassing. He HAD to have at least one person come to the front if it took all night to do so. I was thinking :"Where's the hook?" I don't believe the Apostle Paul would have employed such disgraceful methods.

You are embarrassing with your nonsensical claim that Calvinists do not care for the lost. It's those kind of thoughtless,sinful remarks that are your distinctive MO. You need to change i.e. repent Van.

4. The subject of alcohol throws many in the SBC into near apoplexy, and there is a bizarre fear that Calvinism is the gateway drug for introducing moderationism into the SBC. Yes, I see Calvinism as a gateway to shoddy bible study, and an acceptance of doctrine that makes scripture to no effect.

Your grasping at straws Van. So it's your much-vaunted knowledge of the Bible that leads you to believe that a moderate consumption of alcohol is sinful? Does moderate = drunkedness? You need to elaborate.

6. New Calvinists can be so over the top zealous that they make themselves a perfect nuisance to everyone around them. I’ve head it called the “cage phase.”

Van, in your zealous anti-Calvinism you have made yourself a perfect nuisance on the BB. Your hatred drives you on. Here comes more of your twaddle,shuck and drive routine that begins with :"Folks..."

 

[Van]

Folks, I see another Calvinist has chosen to personally attack me yet again. That is all they have.

1) How does the Holy Spirit convict. Through the gospel of Christ.

2) Basing theology on the mistaken behavior of men is unwise.

3) It was not my claim, it is the claim of the author of #3.

4) Just read what I said, and then read the complete invention of the Calvinist.

Number 5 skipped.

6) Here is an example of bully-boy tactics.

The Calvinists simply post personal attacks, i.e. I am a nuisance, my hate drives me, and on and on. Calvinists posts usually are made of of personal attacks, and generalization, devoid of any actual on topic discussion.

Here is what I said:

1. The best and most generous reason may be that they simply believe it to be false and wish to stop what they consider to be false teaching. I suspect most anti-Calvinists would place themselves in this category.

As one who opposes Calvinism because it is mistaken doctrine, I would just tweak it to say anti-Calvinist doctrine, rather than rejecting any brother or sister in Christ.

2. The stereotypical public invitation has taken on almost sacramental status in the SBC, and Calvinists are not big fans of the invitation. The same can be said of revivals.

I doubt many Calvinists publicly oppose periodic invitations to be reconciled to God.

3. Calvinists evangelize, but tend not to be high pressure evangelists, as if every soul who is lost is somehow their fault.

Very astute. Here the claim is that Calvinists do not feel responsible for those lost.

4. The subject of alcohol throws many in the SBC into near apoplexy, and there is a bizarre fear that Calvinism is the gateway drug for introducing moderationism into the SBC.

Yes, I see Calvinism as a gateway to shoddy bible study, and an acceptance of doctrine that makes scripture to no effect.

5. Although there are some Calvinistic mega-churches, the nature of Calvinistic theology tends away from what it takes to grow mega-churches. Mega-churches and their associated personalities wield nearly all the power in the SBC denominational structure and the rise of Calvinism seems to threaten that.

Mega-Churches can be grown through the blessing of God, or through a cult of personality. Many large church Pastors work extra hard at keeping the love and devotion and followship focused on Christ, and not on any under-shepherd.

6. New Calvinists can be so over the top zealous that they make themselves a perfect nuisance to everyone around them. I’ve head it called the “cage phase.” I went through it to some extent. Loose too many cage phasers into a local church, and they could certainly do damage and I’m sure it has been done. It’s not the theology that splits churches, it’s the zealots.

Calvinism drives a wedge into the body of believers, whether it is fostered by bully boy tactics or by deception.

 

[Rippon]

Folks,...

Just like I said.

The Calvinists simply post personal attacks, i.e. I am a nuisance, my hate drives me, and on and on. Calvinists posts usually are made of of personal attacks, and generalization, devoid of any actual on topic discussion.

Perhaps in a rare moment of reflection you can review some of your posts and see for yourself that what I said is indeed true about you Van.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Creedinal" stuff? The very first website I pulled up for Old School Baptist had a section for Doctrine and Practice. Guess what? The 1689 LBC of Faith was one of their documents that they adhere to.

Which one?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeah, well, they'd sniff out his false teachings and attack anti-cal/arminianism in a heartbeat, then, when they find his study has shelves lined with playtex milk bottles for the sheep that would be a dead give away as well.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC

I am not sure if you mean this seriously or if I am taking this correctly. If so this exemplifies why some are cautious about Calvinism. Too often Calvinists assume those who disagree with their position exhibit a lack of biblical devotion, intellect, etc

.

Hello JonC,
I do not agree with you.In fact most Calvinists have already been in these other churches and once they seriously studied scripture they fled these places. The ones "cautious" about calvinism have a fear of man.
Someone like RM lives in fear that persons in his church will study themself into the biblical position.The hysterical paranoia about sneaky calvinist pastors coming in disguised as something else is nonsense.
As TH posted most do not even know the difference as a non cal pastor is not going to accurately present the DoG. he really cannot if you think about it:thumbsup: As proof...not one non cal accurately states the view here day by day...how much less those who have no interest in biblical discussion.

Of course, many times the same is presented as a stereotype of Calvinists.

Stereotype, no...caricature...yes.

To be fair, there are people on both sides with this unrealistic and unbiblical attitude.

I would submit to you the unbiblical attitude is the non cal,slandering and attacking the cal. If the person was biblical they would embrace the grace of the doctrine.

But this issue has absolutely no reflection on scholarship.

I would not agree with your subjective statement.Spiritual truth is Spiritually discerned....an apostate like Shelby Spong has "supposed scholarship" but he denies the biblical faith...

Most in these churches are not studying much of anything...many are lucky if the struggle through reading a daily bread devotional.

Many pastors probably do have a fear that they will have to labor in the word and doctrine to correct the damage that some Calvinistic zealots may cause.

Yes...you are discovered here:thumbsup: The Calvinistic zealots learn biblical truth, then the goats attack them, they answer with scripture, then the pastor tries to stop the goat stampede trying to head out of the church...
The Cal's are then called zealots for reading romans 8-9....yes..have in fact seen this several times:laugh:

Too often Calvinists are trapped within the DoG.

I have never spoken with a Cal who explains how he feels trapped:laugh:

They cannot see

Or...perhaps you cannot see what they clearly see??????

the multifaceted perspectives presented in Scripture because all doctrines do not necessarily and directly support DoG

.

All 66 books support the doctrine...the scriptures cannot be broken.

They cannot fathom a God that does not prioritize to this doctrine in every thought and action.

They do not have to.They only need believe the God who says this;
115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

or this;

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Granted….well, hopefully….this is a minority within the Calvinist camp. But they are a vocal bunch (perhaps some sense a calling to Calvinism rather than Christ and they wish to convert to Calvinism rather than Christ).

Demonstrate your point perhaps by showing a biblical Calvinist who urges someone to Calvinism apart from it being Jesus teaching?

That said, I do believe that of the theological systems Calvinism has the most biblical support

really.....