1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Non-cal view #2

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by agedman, Jan 2, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 2
  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If one is to take the central focus of all the non-cal views, they resolve to a single point - that of sufficiency.

    (Painting with a wide brush)

    All non-cals do not consider that salvation is sufficiently complete without human work of some manner - be it in a "sinner's prayer," "accepting Christ" in some humanistic manner, Baptism, holding on to some law of sabbath worship...

    Ultimately the non-cal MUST involve human volition and acquiescence for salvation to be "completed." That is placing salvation as a human work, and not of unmerited favor (grace).

    To overcome the weakness of the "sufficiency" issue, there are schemes in which the non-cal engages to entice "the lost" to be saved - for instance the altar call.

    Sometimes actual scriptures are ripped from context and show the insufficiency of God with out human action point (I stand at the door and knock...).


    The point of this thread is to give the non-cal a chance to refute that thinking and embrace that God alone is sufficient outside and without any human action to save whom He chooses to save. (John 6)

    In effect, this thread desires the non-cal to refute the unScriptural and unsound schemes of the non-cal views and embrace truth.
     
    #1 agedman, Jan 2, 2014
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    There is not one single Bible text in the 66 books of scripture that calls, confession, repentance or accepting Christ "salvation by works".

    There is not one single Bible text in the 66 books of scripture that says that the act of accepting Christ is "earning eternal life by works".

    There is not one single Bible text in the 66 books of scripture that says that ignoring Christ will get you heaven.

    Romans 10 provides the model so necessary to the Arminian position - the model that Calvinism's arbitrary selection model does not survive.

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2014
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh my!

    Let's reason through this post and align it with the Scriptures.

    Agreed, because none of those words "acquire" salvation, but are representative of one who is already a believer. For instance, Paul states:
    For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
    ​
    Only the believer has such sorrow in which repentance WITHOUT regret is afforded: Only the believer has Christ as an advocate.


    Like I said, "The act of accepting Christ" as the non-cal would scheme is unscriptural. It is not found in Scripture and is not even exampled in Scripture.


    What are you refuting with this statement?

    Not something that I posted.

    Ignoring Christ is turning away from the true light of the world. Of course that won't get you to heaven.



    FINALLY some meat!

    Look carefully at the statements you highlighted and enlarged.

    They point to these basic items.

    1) THE WORD is already in the heart - can't be in the heart unless the person is already saved.

    2) The Scriptures state that what is in the heart will come out of the mouth. So does this Roman's passage. What is in the heart will be confessed and will be lived.

    3) Taking the words "resulting in" (a translation of the Greek "eis") is not to be taken as an "if you do this, then this will happen" view. Rather, "eis" is prepositional in nature. It is used in the sense that the results of belief in the heart is salvation, and confession the results of salvation.

    4) Certainly there is ultimately no disappointment to those in Christ (believers).

    Seems you are attempting to make doctrine out of a single verse (10) and not considering the balance of Scriptures.

    But, you are correct that this is a cornerstone passage for the non-cal views. Unfortunately, the view obliges human effort of belief, and human effort of confession to bring about salvation, rather than the actual intent of the passage.

    The intent of the passage is the demonstrate the results of salvation is no different no matter the heritage of the person (Jew or Gentile).

    Heart change will result in confession.

    Doesn't Christ discuss that precept in Matthew 12 and 15 and the brother of Christ in James 1?

    See, one must not attempt to construct whole doctrine upon one small verse or even one small passage, or it will often lead into non-cal error.
     
    #3 agedman, Jan 2, 2014
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    "He came to HIS own and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    "But to as many as RECEIVED him He gave the right to be called the children of God" John 1.

    "I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hear my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in " Rev 3

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2014
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Romans 10 provides the model so necessary to the Arminian position - the model that Calvinism's arbitrary selection model does not survive.

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]


    Indeed. Genesis 3 "I will put emnity between the see of the woman and the seed of the serpent".

    The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". John 16.

    Those reading Romans 10 have access to scripture in their hands.

    In Romans 10 "Faith comes FROM hearing and hearing by the WORD of God"

    Pure speculation - the point to be proved - not merely "assumed".

    Worse than that "The already saved" insert you are attempting flatly contradicts what the text DOES say.

    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]

    The text says "IF" you do this - it does not say "what is in the heart of the already saved will be confessed and will be lived" - you merely infer what is not there. This text is about how one BECOMES saved not what the already-saved saints are doing.



    I agree that Calvinism does not survive the actual wording in the text - it "needs" different wording to survive the text.

    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]

    I agree that extreme inference could be used to bend this text around to saying "because you are already saved you will believe and because you are already saved you will confess".

    I have never argued against the point that Calvinism needs to completely bend these texts around 180 degrees.


    Not at all - I often post dozens of texts to disprove Calvinism - but I prefer to narrow it down to a few for the sake of focus.

    However it is "interesting" that you seem to suggest that I not use Romans 10:9-10 since one of your "solutions" is to bend the text so far back on itself that it states the opposite of what is written and would then perfectly fit Calvinism.

    Were that actually true - Calvinists themselves would be dragging Arminians to Romans 10:9-10 instead of the other way around.

    I think we know why the Calvinists are not insisting that we all read Romans 10:9-10 as the ultimate expression of Calvinism that you have been claiming for it.

    Rather it appears to be the ultimate expression for the Arminian POV.

    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]


    Agreed. But how can that be if the text were in fact making the opposite point to what is stated - as you have suggested??


    In a free will system - the puppeteer model of Calvinism with "one actor alone" does not work.

    That is why the Bible states the case as we see in vs 9-10.

    I agree that the Calvinist story would require that we imagine that we just read "the results OF salvation" rather than "results IN salvation" in the text.


    Nobody doubts the fact that the born again Christian - under the New Covenant with the Law of God written on the heart by the Holy Spirit - will result in words that are fitting for a saint.

    But Romans 10 is not talking about "what saved saints will do" but rather HOW a person BECOMES saved.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2014
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That I have not time to wrestle every inaccuracy of your post, I will present this short review in hope that you have eyes to see.

    First, the "IF" is NOT found in the original language and IS assumed by those who embrace a "prevenient grace" view in the translation work. Note: Here is a link which shows the NASB, NKJV, YLT, and ESV for comparison. Romans 10:10


    Look again at Roman's 10 (NIV used here for readability only):
    Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    ​
    Now here are a few places to focus:

    1) Verse 1 - Brothers and sisters. The passage is written not to the unbelievers but the believers. Other versions sometimes use "Brethren."

    2) Verse 6 - The word "but" means in contrast to what was just previously written. What follows the "but" - the righteousness by faith. Each version that I checked is consistent in this matter.

    Again, WHO is this passage written too? Believers.

    Who have "the righteousness by faith?" Believers.

    3) WHO then has the word in their heart and in the mouth? Believers.

    4) Who is the audience following the "but" of both verses 6 and 8? Believers.

    The whole is written and concerns believers - not written to those who are unbelievers.

    Now, I have started you on the correct journey, it is up to you to continue.

    What is amazing is the lengths the non-cal views must stretch the truth of Scriptures to fit them into some scheme in which the Scriptures do not even give credence!

    There is absolutely no Scriptures to support "prevenient grace" thinking, nor a view that demands human effort which the non-cal insert into salvation as what must be done by the unbeliever to be saved.

    Non-cal views always exalt humankind into the final authority in matters of salvation. They must then refuse that Christ is both the author and also the finisher of faith, of salvation.
     
    #6 agedman, Jan 3, 2014
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The nonsense continues like a fire hose, spewing absurdity over crowd of protesters.

    1) Does salvation include human volition? Who decides to put an individual in Christ, the man or God? God. So fiction #1.

    2) Are we saved by grace through faith? Yes, so God requires that we trust fully in Christ. Fiction #2 denies the work God requires is to believe.

    3) Does our faith merit salvation? Nope, it is God who credits it, or not, as righteousness. Without God turning a sows ear into a silk purse, our faith would be just another filthy rag. So strike #3, and Calvinism has been shown once again to simply spew the same nonsense, refuted over and over.

    The dirty little secret Calvinism denies is that God chooses for salvation individuals through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before our individual election and salvation and regeneration.
     
    #7 Van, Jan 3, 2014
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,557
    Likes Received:
    474
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Phil 1:28,29

    The, "on him," can either be Christ or God in verse 28 and to most that would be the same but personally I believe God the Father of Christ. See also: 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
     
    #8 percho, Jan 3, 2014
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hey agedman,

    Are you saying that one does not have to “accept” Christ, or that when one does “accept” Christ it is of divine origin as opposed to “some humanistic manner”? I ask because I do agree that many non-Calvinist (but not necessarily all who refute Calvinism) ultimately place salvation in the realm of human action (men ultimately effect their own salvation). It seems that one must believe to be saved, they must “accept Christ” (in this manner). But I believe that that faith, that “acceptance” is a product of God and not of natural man. So…I think I agree with you, but am not certain.

    I do have to agree with BobRyan that Scripture never takes repentance or accepting Christ as being “salvation by works.” If I have missed passages that do speak such, I am more than willing to be corrected. For me the crux of this issue is that Arminianism ultimately places salvation in the hands (or hearts) of unregenerate men rather than God. It is not an issue of “work based salvation” but of men’s unwillingness. Again, and as always, I am open to correction via Scripture.
     
    #9 JonC, Jan 3, 2014
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    The "IF" you refer to is in vs 9 - but the list of translations and reference you give is for vs 10.

    NASB
    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]

    YLT - Young's Literal Translation
    9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,
    10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;


    NKJV
    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


    KJV
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


    It is unclear that the text is making your point - even with these various translations compared.





    It is unclear that even the loose translation NIV is helping your case here "9 If you declare with your mouth...you will be saved. ... 10 it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved"

    The NIV does not appear to be helping your case for the mouth is first declaring - and the result is "you will be saved".

    Help for Calvinism is not "in the text" it is in "inference in spite of the text" most often.

    ​
    Paul is reminding the believers how it is - that they were saved in the first place - and giving them the sequence that will be used to save others through their evangelism.



    [FONT=&quot]9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]
    (NASB)

    Many millions of the unsaved have become saved by the very formula Paul gives in Romans 10 since the time this scripture was written. That is how evangelism works.

    Calvinists often "circle back" in the NT text to the point that the scriptures are written by prophets and apostles to church members and then they "pretend" that the church did not have the concept of evangelizing the lost with the words of scripture written to the church.

    However we all know that this is simply not how evangelism works. In actual evangelism Romans 10 IS quote, applied. believed, accepted, and found to result in salvation just as the text states.

    Most Calvinists know this as well as Arminian- but some Calvinists don't like admitting it at certain times because it is not convenient at that point in the debate.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2014
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Until we read texts like "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

    And like "I STAND at the door and KNOCK - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3.

    And like "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5:10

    And of course "I will draw ALL MANKIND to Me" John 12:32

    "I will place ENMITY (war/opposition) between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3

    So "yeah" --- prevenient grace.
     
    #11 BobRyan, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2014
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    You assume Calvinism is correct, when that is the question up for debate.

    It's really pretty simple;

    Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
    28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
    29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    The Philipian jailer was a simple man, no scholar, no theologian, he asked direct questions because he needed a simple answer.

    What must I do to be saved? He had no idea what must be done, but he knew he had to do something. So he asked a very honest and staightforward question. And Paul and Silas gave him a very simple straightforward answer.

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    There it was, the ANSWER. Just believe on Jesus and you will be saved. And if your family believes on Jesus they will be saved too.

    And then Paul preached the gospel to this poor man and explained how Jesus was the Son of God who lived under the law without sin for thirty-three years, and then died on the cross for OUR sins, each and every one of us. And that after three days God raised him from the dead. And now if we will trust that work Jesus did to save us we will have everlasting life.

    We do have to do something. Paul didn't tell this fellow to do nothing, and hope that God regenerates him. No, he told this man he must trust Jesus Christ to be saved, and that if his family trusts Jesus they will be saved too.

    So, you have to do something, you have to believe on Jesus. That is all you have to do, but you MUST do this.
     
    #12 Winman, Jan 3, 2014
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    See,

    HERE is the very essence of the non-cal view. It is based upon a works salvation.

    I never "assumed Calvinism is correct," but YOUR own statement shows that it is.

    The sum of the Non-Cal view exalts humankind over God - It has to in order that their schemes make sense to them.

    The Scriptures state that it is the unbelievers who turn from the light, hide in darkness, and do not comprehend the light.

    The Scriptures state that the believer embraces (receives) the light, welcomes the light, and does nothing to acquire the light, attain the light, or grab onto the light nor turns to the light.

    But the Non-cal view must rely on some human contrivance of "prevenient grace" to exalt humankind to some level of authority that THEY may make some decision on their own. They place God as subservient to the "will of man."

    What did the rich young ruler do? He TURNED from the light.
     
    #13 agedman, Jan 3, 2014
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    No it's not, the scriptures contrast works and faith, they are opposites.

    Of course you did, in the OP you stated the purpose of this thread was to refute the non Biblical and non scriptural views of non Cals. You assume Calvinism is correct.

    And trust me, you will not find me saying Calvinism is correct, I think it is horrendous error, far worse than many other false doctrines.

    Pure baloney there.

    Sounds to me like works, embracing is a work is it not? Welcoming is a work. Who is teaching works? How's that persevering coming along????

    How is depending on God's grace a work? You are really confused.
     
    #14 Winman, Jan 3, 2014
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The work of the Holy Spirit in this passage is not "prevenient grace" - It isn't even considered as part of the passage.

    Using a misappropriated Scripture in attempt to puff up the proof of a doctrine that isn't even mentioned in Scriptures is typical of the non-cal.


    The Scripture applies to the assembly of (hopefully) believers and in no way is the context usable to support the claim of "prevenient grace" view.


    Using a misappropriated Scripture in attempt to puff up the proof of a doctrine that isn't even mentioned in Scriptures is typical of the non-cal.


    Is this not just as John states that Christ is our "advocate." Does Christ reconcile the whole world to Himself? Obviously not. Not even the most liberal non-cal would be able to support that thinking.

    This is just an attempt to give some credence to the non-cal view, and just has no true Scriptural foundation.


    Using a misappropriated Scripture in attempt to puff up the proof of a doctrine that isn't even mentioned in Scriptures is typical of the non-cal.

    No doubt. Part of his authority over death and hell, life and death. Christ can do as He chooses to any part of His creation - even condemning a tree to death for not bearing fruit out of season.

    To offer this verse as supportive of "prevenient grace" is just an utterly futile and carrying water in a sieve, holds nothing of value.

    Using a misappropriated Scripture in attempt to puff up the proof of a doctrine that isn't even mentioned in Scriptures is typical of the non-cal.


    Pointing to this Scripture as some "proof" of "prevenient grace" is so very typical of the desperate straits non-cals will resort.

    Using a misappropriated Scripture in attempt to puff up the proof of a doctrine that isn't even mentioned in Scriptures is typical of the non-cal.
     
    #15 agedman, Jan 3, 2014
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Originally Posted by agedman [​IMG]
    There is absolutely no Scriptures to support "prevenient grace" thinking,
    Until we read texts like "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

    And like "I STAND at the door and KNOCK - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3.

    And like "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5:10

    And of course "I will draw ALL MANKIND to Me" John 12:32

    "I will place ENMITY (war/opposition) between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3

    So "yeah" --- prevenient grace.

    You assume the salient point of that claim above rather than proving it.

    Which means the point remains.

    "The goodness of God LEADS you to repentance" Romans 2:4.

    And it starts with the Work of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.

    "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

    Prevenient grace.

    Your string of accusations is impressive but proves nothing since you take no time to show that your accusations are even valid.

    That act of Christ as "first cause" is seen in Rev 3 and also His understanding that the one "alone" on the inside has been enabled to hear and to OPEN the door without Christ having to first knock the door down.


    Your "assumption" is not stated in the text. You merely assume it by extreme inference -- which is after all the basis and substance for Calvinism.


    In 2Cor 5 "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself... we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to Christ"

    Prevenient grace can exist without the one who benefits from it - being forced to choose Christ.

    I think we can all see that point.

    You repeat accusations as if merely thinking up an accusation was "proof" of something in favor of your argument.

    Why keep doing that?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2014
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Are you being deceitful and desperately wicked to place YOUR post WITH my post as if I was making such a claim?

    Or is it that you didn't get the "[/quote]" in the right place.

    Like I showed - only by perverting the truth of the Scriptures into a lie.


    I never ASSUMED anything, but showed how YOU took great liberty to rip from the context and misappropriate the Scriptures to fit some design that exalts humankind above God.

    Again, you are extrapolating something the context does not give you authority to take.

    Typical of the non-cal view.

    But, just so the casual readers will see for themselves:

    Rev: 3
    14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
    15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
    ​
    Folks, anyone with eyes to see can recognize that the "you" and "your" are used to refer back to the church - the Laodicean assembly.

    Well, perhaps that is the problem with the non-cal - it blinds the eyes to the truth.



    Surely, you didn't go back and review the context of any of the verses from which you drew your stand.

    Typical of the non-cal, so indoctrinated and biased, they consider just any proof-text will suffice.


    What point? I only see you assuming that "prevenient grace" is a fact of the Scriptures.

    It isn't.

    There is not a single verse throughout the Scriptures that even allude to such a condition of which God exalts humankind.

    The non-cal is based upon fiction and distortion.

    Because, I was hoping that you might actually be capable of constructing a truly Scripturally based argument in support of the "prevenient grace" non-cal thinking.

    Unfortunately, it seems that all you have to offer is taking Scriptures out of context and misapplying the proof-text to a humanistic scheme that has no Scriptural support.

    You could admit that "prevenient grace" isn't found in the Scriptures.

    You could admit that "prevenient grace" is a human invention superimposed upon the Scriptures.

    You could admit that "prevenient grace" is foundational to the non-cal views and without it the non-cal views offer nothing of substance.

    You could admit that "prevenient grace" ultimately embraces a works salvation in that humankind must be exalted into a place of authority in which God is subservient.

    You could admit, but it is doubtful that you will.

    The typical non-cal will cling to the untruth of "prevenient grace" because of the bias, indoctrination, and blinding of the non-cal scheme obliges distortion and misappropriation of Scriptures.
     
    #17 agedman, Jan 3, 2014
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The answer to these scriptures for prevenient grace cannot be "it is unscriptural" and we both know it.

    Until we read texts like "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

    And like "I STAND at the door and KNOCK - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3.

    And like "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5:10

    And of course "I will draw ALL MANKIND to Me" John 12:32

    "I will place ENMITY (war/opposition) between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3

    So "yeah" --- prevenient grace.

    that is a wild and yet hollow claim. Why not support your accusation with something like an actual Bible argument?

    Why keep doing that?


    Because obviously it would be nonsensical to ignore the scriptures I have given here showing that it does exist in Scripture.

    This is the "easy part" -- wouldn't you agree?

    Again - you offer "wishful thinking" in response to the texts given.

    Why keep doing that? Wishful thinking is not a new funny kind of "sola scriptura argument" -- I think we both know that.

    I am happy to admit that.

    totally false.

    Your false conclusion is based on the myth in Calvinism that to accept the Gospel is "salvation by works" --- and the Bible never endorses that myth - so Calvinists simply "make it up".

    I think a lot of posters here can see that point.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jan 4, 2014
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Until we read texts like "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16


    Until we read texts like Rev 3

    17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

    20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


    You assume the salient point of that claim above rather than proving it.

    Which means the point remains.

    "The goodness of God LEADS you to repentance" Romans 2:4.

    And it starts with the Work of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.

    "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

    Prevenient grace.

    In the Rev 3 example above Christ is "on the OUTSIDE" and the lost sinner is on the "INSIDE - ALONE" and without what scripture calls "Christ IN YOU the Hope of Glory".

    The mythical idea that the Christless alone condition is the "saved condition" is NOT taught anywhere in scripture and we both know it.

    The mythical idea that church membership alone and without Christ would make one saved -- is not taught anywhere in scripture - and we both know it.

    "Every branch IN ME that does NOT bear fruit" is pruned then "removed then dries up and dies - then is cast into the fire". John 15


    17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

    Christ speaks to the lost condition of those in the church. But lost "is lost" my friends. It matters not if one is LOST inside the church or outside the church - the path to salvation is the same for the christless person who is alone - and without Christ within.

    Christ "Draws ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and this same outreach of Christ -- who is OUTSIDE the soul - outside of the lost - who draws them, who stands at their door and knocks - who waits for the lost Christless person to choose to hear and to choose to OPEN THE DOOR - is exactly the description of prevenient grace that the Arminian position needs to find in scripture.

    And we both know it.

    The myth in Calvinism that this can be spun around as some odd as-of-yet-unheard-of sort of "Christless salvation" of the one who is alone and without Christ - is supported only by the strong "need" in Calvinism to invent it. It is not supported by the text that says -

    17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
     
    #19 BobRyan, Jan 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2014
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I posted the whole Rev 3 passage in context - you deny the context and supplant it with non-cal thinking. Lifting your contention of some human scheme above Scripture.

    Typical of the non-cal view that must exalt man and make God submissive.

    By not following the context, a non-cal makes all manner of assumptions about the Scriptures that are just not factual.


    "Which means" you have still taken Scriptures out of context, and twisted them into a humanistic scheme in which man is exalted and presents God as subservient to man's will.

    You can not take verses such as you have of Romans and John and expect other than by proof-texting distortion to make any support for the non-cal thinking.

    Not a single non-cal presentation of "prevenient grace" does not hold man as exalted and the final authority in authoring and in some cases actually keeping or finishing faith. That some how humankind are ascended BEFORE becoming a believer by God is just not even close to Scripture teaching.

    John 1: Who is it that is Given the power? The believers - those who have NOT TURNED from the light as the unbelievers do do. "To THEM gave He the power ..."

    The whole of the non-cal scheme is deceitful.



    Perhaps it would be wise, before you make such a huge error in Scripture reading, that you actually read the Scriptures for the facts they contain.

    Rev 1:
    4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth ... 20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lamp stands:
    the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lamp stands are the seven churches.
    ​
    What are the seven churches?

    Rev 2 and 3:
    2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

    8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

    12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

    18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

    3:1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:

    7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

    14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    ​
    There is no way to take the balance of all these Scriptures given to the Churches as indicative "the lost sinner is on the "INSIDE - ALONE"" as you desire. No lost sinner "inside -alone" does a church make.

    That is just not an accurate reading and to present it as truthful is ignoring the truth. It is not even consistent with casual comprehension of the passage, much less that which is obliged by in depth study.

    This is an example of how the whole non-cal scheme presents a distortion of scriptures and rips out truth of the context replacing it with lies. The non-cal views continually present a false view of humankind being exalted and God subservient to human authority.

    Non-cal views MUST present God as "outside" and hat in hand begging to be involved. It must present God as "outside" and so feeble as needing human authority as the author of Salvation. It must present God as "outside," knocking, banging on the door, shouting above the raucousness of this world, desperately trying to gain a single lost soul's attention.

    The non-cal view presents God as inadequate and needy.

    The non-cal view is distorted and deceitful.



    There is not a single part of any thread, or of any post that I have made that even suggests, much less states, anything about a "Christless" salvation.

    This is just a distortion and distraction from the truth. It is a fabric of your own imaginings.

    This is typical of what the non-cal folks will engage in hope that if there is enough lie thrown into their statements, the support of their human exalting scheme will at least sound valid.

    Mixing truth with error results in error, not truth.

    It was that way in the Eden, it was that way in the temptation in the wilderness, and it continues to this day.

    Truth must stand with not even the shadow of error cast upon it.

    The non-cal error is fraught not only with the shadow of error, but with the substance and stink of error.


    It sure is "unheard of!"

    It is purely a figment of your own imagination, and has absolutely not substance to the truth.

    Would you PLEASE demonstrate FACTS when you post about the Cal view.

    At least, I have done that with the non-cal view.

    You may not like that I have exposed the blatant error, and that the non-cal view(s) uses distortion and deceit in some attempt to make humankind the author of salvation by exalting the person into the final authority decision maker, but that isn't my problem - it is factually true.

    By trying to distract and distort the truth presented in the Cal view in comparison to the non-cal view is so typical of the non-cal.
     
    #20 agedman, Jan 4, 2014
Page 1 of 2
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...