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Featured Do you worship the biblical God,or one of your own imagination?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    If indeed the biblical God as He has revealed himself in scripture is exactly as described by Calvinists.....would you, or could you worship Him?

    If before the world was... the Trinity planned a Covenant salvation saving a multitude in Jesus by electing all such persons unconditionally.Then at the correct time Jesus comes to seek and save them and actually accomplish their redemption......would you worship Him?

    Or would you contend that He is austere and refuse to worship Him? Would you call Him names and find fault with Him and His plan?
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014
  2. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    Given Calvinism; that question is irrelevant.

    In a Calvinist construct that question is literally meaningless.
    I am baffled by how little you comprehend your own system that you would even bother to ask such a non-question.
    It has no place in your schema. It's an irrelevant question, it cannot be answered.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5CHjiuFehU
     
    #2 Inspector Javert, Jan 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2014
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    There's only ONE God that all of us who are saved worship...
     
    #3 convicted1, Jan 9, 2014
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I agree con1.....and whatever He does is always Holy, wise, and just.This is the confession of all who are in heaven....rev.19
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The question is quite clear.....you might not care to answer it.....but it is simple and direct to any who do not have an agenda.
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014
  6. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #6 convicted1, Jan 9, 2014
  7. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Pardon me for being blunt...truly...maybe it's because I don't feel well.

    If the "Calvinist" God were the Biblical God as I understand Calvinism from those I listened to across the years...

    ....then if I were a member of the elect I would have no choice but to worship him, no choice at all.

    If I were in the reprobate clan, if I were hated by God before I was ever born, hated by him before he said "let there be light", created merely to burn in the giant bonfire for eternity, created only to saved the "good people" from "myself" (Matt Slick's Reformed belief)....

    "Finally, there is a logical problem with not creating people who go to hell. It would mean that no one would go to heaven. You see, without the crucifixion no one could be saved. But, in order for Jesus to be crucified, evil people had to lie about Him and murder Him. His crucifixion is the means by which we are saved. So, if God doesn't create people He knows will go to hell, then there would have been no crucifixion by which people could be saved. In that case, all people would go to hell. Therefore, if God was to not make anyone who would go to hell, then He would not make anyone at all."

    ....then God would never approach me by grace or mercy nor call me to salvation and I would believe nothing about him except maybe he was a myth and Christians were crazy .... I wouldn't think him to be austere because I would know nothing about him. Then I would die....

    .....and POOF! I'd burn for eternity wondering what I did to offend him - understanding right and wrong, but confused forever about why he never came to me with Jesus because he never showed me the truth - I was no different than a log in a cord of wood to him - and wondering why he created me only TO burn.
     
    #7 Scarlett O., Jan 9, 2014
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Scarlett o.the key idea is that even if you did not fully understand all God has revealed....you would worship Him.....trusting that HE is a Holy God, who can be trusted in all His holy works.

    For example.....If I believe the end time view of post mill was correct....but then find myself raptured and walking around in a future 1000 yr earthly millenium.....I would be quite okay with it.
    Now a believer might not emotionally grasp election and reprobation.....but if that is indeed the teaching they should be able to come to grips with it.
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2014
  9. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Brother, there is a whole LOT I don't understand. I don't understand how Jesus is God and simultaneously, God's Son. But I trust God that He is telling me the truth in His word. I accept it and gladly tell it.

    I believe that you, Iconoclast, are going to heaven and me, too. I trust God for that.

    I trust Him explicitly.

    What I can't always trust is man's interpretation of the Word. I've been wrong before and I have found fault before in many, many smart and faithful people.

    I cannot espouse the C. theology. I don't even KNOW what the A. theology is. (I heard once they don't believe in the security of the believer, but I don't know.)

    I don't suppose I brandish a name.
     
    #9 Scarlett O., Jan 9, 2014
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Do You Worship the Biblical God?

    Intriguing. Note Exodus 33:12-23. Moses asked to know more of God and His ways after seeing His severity and mercy, and wondered if he had found favor in his sight. Obviously he was filled with fear and awe after all he witnessed. Do not the redeemed as well seek if they really know Him, working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Php. 2:12) only to be reassured time and again?

    After Moses' questioning God told him that He shows mercy on whom He wills, and on whom He wills He hardens, then after all this His goodness passed before him. In other words Moses wanted to know more about God and it was sufficient what he already understood, but perhaps could not encapsulate into words, that is that God shows mercy to whom He wills and hardens whom He wills.

    Yet Moses still desired to worship and know Him while many today are repudiated by this Scriptural portrait of God. It all boils down to do we or do we not trust this God of Scripture, or, do we haughtily reply against the revelation of Him revealed in Scripture with our own finite minds. If so, is that evidence of a mind that is still at hostility with God -- Romans 5:10; 8:7; Col. 1:2; Eph. 2:3?

    Some in the church have lost this awe and fear of God and have reduced Him down to a more controllable size with diminished attributes and limited sovereignty. Or perhaps they've never had this awe and fear of the God of Scripture in the first place.
     
    #10 preacher4truth, Jan 9, 2014
  11. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    If the Calvinist on the board are correct, as I understand them, then the question has no meaning.

    If Hitler or any other horrible person was of the elect than it does not matter what he did nor if he/she rejected Christ.

    If a person is the best person who ever lived and is not of the elect then it does not matter if he/she dedicated their life to Christ and did all for him.

    Thus, we are puppet on a string and it does not matter what we believe or how we live ... if the Calvinists are correct.

    Calvinists on the board have convinced me they are wrong.
     
    #11 Crabtownboy, Jan 9, 2014
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, Iconoclast does not understand Calvinism. He doesn't understand that if Calvinism were true, his question is impossible to answer.

    He really doesn't get it.
     
    #12 Winman, Jan 9, 2014
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Good post Scarlett O
    We are all still learning.In truth what we consider as difficult is most likely only the tip of the theological iceberg oh heavenly things......HoweverIit is all we can handle right now!
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014
  14. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    It's not about having an "agenda" or "caring" to answer it, Icon......

    I DO CARE to "answer it".
    That's because the question has actual meaning in my schema...
    I LOVE answering it from MY perspective
    But it's not even a question in YOURS.

    Given your schema it's literally an irrelevant and meaningless question.
    Your problem Icon, is becoming rather clear:

    It's not that you don't debate well,
    It's not that you don't understand Arminianism,
    ....It's that you don't even understand Calvinism, sir....seriously.

    Winman understands Calvinism better than you....
    I do.......
    So does Scarlett......

    Your O.P makes absolutely no sense.
    Given actual Calvinism.........your O.P is literally meaningless.
    And you don't get that.....You're incredible.....You bloviate about how all non-Calvinist are "Blasphemers" and what-not and you seriously don't even understand that in YOUR OWN SYSTEM...that's not even a meaningful question........incredible.
     
    #14 Inspector Javert, Jan 9, 2014
  15. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    No...........

    Iconoclast has no clue about the teachings of Calvinism.............

    Compared to him, you are the World's foremost authority on the topic, and I might as well be a deity...

    He has no clue what Calvinism is about........none.

    He wouldn't know a Calvinist from a grasshopper.
     
    #15 Inspector Javert, Jan 9, 2014
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Wait till he gets it, that's going to be a real eye opener.
     
    #16 Winman, Jan 9, 2014
  17. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    Icon seriously doesn't understand that....It's beyond him.

    He doesn't comprehend that most basic of facts.
     
    #17 Inspector Javert, Jan 9, 2014
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes....There is something wrong with iconoclast:laugh:

    He does not see why you or crabby say it is impossible to answer....

    The question is Not do you like that teaching. Or do you understand the teaching.

    The question is simply like this.....next to where the found the dead sea scrolls......let us say they find a signed copy of a confession of faith that is just like the 1689 confession...except more in detail and is signed by all the apostles:love2:

    Faced with this reality.......would or could you obey and teach it.

    From a Cal point of view....you would because you would be enabled by God to see it.

    So.....I now ask about your heart reality.....are you submissive to God in that you would trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus.....but to trust and obey.:love2:
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2014
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If Calvinism were true, then I cannot say whether I could or would obey or teach Calvinism, and neither could you.

    You need to think about your doctrine for awhile, and then you will understand why everyone is giving you this answer.
     
    #19 Winman, Jan 9, 2014
  20. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #20 Inspector Javert, Jan 9, 2014
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