Reincarnation The Second Birth!

[Trying2DoRight]

John, Chapter 3

3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.
4:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5:Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7:Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

If you do not believe in reincarnation the second birth,
please post the reason or reasons why you do not believe this?

 

[agedman]

John, Chapter 3

3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.
4:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5:Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7:Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

If you do not believe in reincarnation the second birth,
please post the reason or reasons why you do not believe this?

The second birth is not "reincarnation" for by definition the word means "rebirth." Christ does not provide a "rebirth" but a complete "new birth" - the believer is a "new creation..."

Nicodemus thought that is what Christ meant by the statement "you must be born again." And the question of how that was to be accomplished. Was he to go back inside the mother, and by extrapolation, what if there were no more mother - some surrogate? So, it would seem Nic. had some rebirth thinking.

Christ gently lead Nic into the discernment that believers are twice born.

The first birth is that of the flesh. What is flesh birth? The baby is encased in fluid, and born of "water" that removes the cushion between baby and mother, cleanses, and lubricates the birth canal.

The second birth is that of the spirit. What is spirit birth? The new born believer "birthed" into the body of Christ.

One is physical, one is spiritual.

One cannot be a believer outside of the physical and spiritual births having been completed.

DO NOT be jumping to the conclusion that "still born" and "aborted" are not saved. That is not part of the issue of the passage of John.

 

[prophet]

The second birth is not "reincarnation" for by definition the word means "rebirth." Christ does not provide a "rebirth" but a complete "new birth" - the believer is a "new creation..."

Nicodemus thought that is what Christ meant by the statement "you must be born again." And the question of how that was to be accomplished. Was he to go back inside the mother, and by extrapolation, what if there were no more mother - some surrogate? So, it would seem Nic. had some rebirth thinking.

Christ gently lead Nic into the discernment that believers are twice born.

The first birth is that of the flesh. What is flesh birth? The baby is encased in fluid, and born of "water" that removes the cushion between baby and mother, cleanses, and lubricates the birth canal.

The second birth is that of the spirit. What is spirit birth? The new born believer "birthed" into the body of Christ.

One is physical, one is spiritual.

One cannot be a believer outside of the physical and spiritual births having been completed.

DO NOT be jumping to the conclusion that "still born" and "aborted" are not saved. That is not part of the issue of the passage of John.

More specifically "reincarnate" means to "put in the flesh again".
We are born again of the Spirit, retaining our original flesh(body).
Reincarnation is the process of retaining the original soul, but being born into a new body.
carne =muscle tissue, or flesh, or meat. It is the physical body.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you do not believe in reincarnation the second birth,
please post the reason or reasons why you do not believe this?

We are eternal beings body and soul/spirit.We continue on as the same person throughout eternity....we do not come back as a butterfly or something else.

The bible teaches a bodily resurrection.

 

[agedman]

More specifically "reincarnate" means to "put in the flesh again".
We are born again of the Spirit, retaining our original flesh(body).
Reincarnation is the process of retaining the original soul, but being born into a new body.
carne =muscle tissue, or flesh, or meat. It is the physical body.

I agree, and that is why the fleshly form does not come into the presence of God.

The believers are given, when they vacate this fleshly form, a new body.

I long for that day that John records:

1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
​

 

[John of Japan]

The second birth is not "reincarnation" for by definition the word means "rebirth." Christ does not provide a "rebirth" but a complete "new birth" - the believer is a "new creation..."

Nicodemus thought that is what Christ meant by the statement "you must be born again." And the question of how that was to be accomplished. Was he to go back inside the mother, and by extrapolation, what if there were no more mother - some surrogate? So, it would seem Nic. had some rebirth thinking.

Christ gently lead Nic into the discernment that believers are twice born.

The first birth is that of the flesh. What is flesh birth? The baby is encased in fluid, and born of "water" that removes the cushion between baby and mother, cleanses, and lubricates the birth canal.

The second birth is that of the spirit. What is spirit birth? The new born believer "birthed" into the body of Christ.

One is physical, one is spiritual.

One cannot be a believer outside of the physical and spiritual births having been completed.

DO NOT be jumping to the conclusion that "still born" and "aborted" are not saved. That is not part of the issue of the passage of John.

This is an excellent explanation. Reincarnation is strictly the physical, since the reincarnated person has a new mind and heart--supposedly only vague memories if anything of the previous "incarnation."

Since traditional Buddhism teaches reincarnation (though few Japanese Buddhists know this), all Japanese Bibles are careful to distinguish between the word used for the new birth in John (新しく生まれる) and the Buddhist word for reincarnation (輪廻).

 

[righteousdude2]

John, Chapter 3

3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.
4:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5:Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7:Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

If you do not believe in reincarnation the second birth,
please post the reason or reasons why you do not believe this?

If you have a few minutes, may I suggest that you read from the following link. In case you don't have the time, let me share the conclusion of the author, Richard G. Howe ...

My argument in this issue has not been to show that reincarnation is a false doctrine. Rather, I have argued that the Bible does not assume nor declare the doctrine of reincamation.4 Instead, it offers the hope of the resurrection. Jesus himself said in John 5:26-29: ”For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and to execute judgment also, because lie is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this for the hour is coming in which all who arc in the graves will hear His voice and come forth those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

One other NOTE as to those buying into some form of reincarnation and the Christian faith ... if is a growing theme among the new Emerging Church! It is pure heresy, and should be treated as such. If anyone even entertains the thoughts/idea of reincarnation, it would be wise for them to repent and ask the Holy Ghost to remove the thoughts as far from your mind as the east is from the west! It can only lead to confusion of the death and resurrection of the body, and it could be harmful to those you come into contact with!

Shalom!

 

[kyredneck]

John, Chapter 3

3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.
4:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5:Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7:Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

If you do not believe in reincarnation the second birth,
please post the reason or reasons why you do not believe this?

It's not a 'second birth' or 'born again', it's anothen:

from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again

Anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

Anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3



...If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God Jn 3:3 YLT

....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Before one can enter into or even see the kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If you have a few minutes, may I suggest that you read from the following link.

Uh ...

... link?

 

[prophet]

It's not a 'second birth' or 'born again', it's anothen:

from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again

Anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

Anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3



...If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God Jn 3:3 YLT

....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

As in:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

'Born from above' is a direct reference to the children of the heavenly Zion. Before one can enter into or even see the kingdom of God here on earth, they must first be a child of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Jn 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water...first birth
Spirit...born again, new birth, regeneration, etc.
It is still "again", by definition.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thread is being moved to "All Christian" forum, since the person starting it is not Baptist and is not allowed (duh) to post in Baptist-only forum.

Please abide by the rules.

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Thread is being moved to "All Christian" forum, since the person starting it is not Baptist and is not allowed (duh) to post in Baptist-only forum.

Please abide by the rules.

I am a baptist. I am a church of God baptist! I was baptized in the Baptist church! But I will adhere to your wishes. And if you feel that I am too liberal or too conservative or too much anything else you are not... to be one of you...that will be acceptable to me also!

Thank you

 

[Trying2DoRight]

I have read through your reply's. Thank you for your feed back! As time permits I will go through them one by one and ask you questions in response to your reply to my opening statement. I am seeking, to prove to myself that what I believe is the truth and if not, then learn the truth.

Thank you.

 

[Trying2DoRight]

The second birth is not "reincarnation" for by definition the word means "rebirth." Christ does not provide a "rebirth" but a complete "new birth" - the believer is a "new creation..."

When you are born again as according to this you have said to me here...do you still have the same soul as you had the first birth, or do you have a new soul when you are born again the second time? When you reply do not get out of the context of what you have said to me here! This is the foundation to everything else you have said to me, all else you said, hinges on this.

 

[Trying2DoRight]

More specifically "reincarnate" means to "put in the flesh again".
We are born again of the Spirit, retaining our original flesh(body).
Reincarnation is the process of retaining the original soul, but being born into a new body.
carne =muscle tissue, or flesh, or meat. It is the physical body.

Which term do you believe Jesus would use "reincarnated" or "born again" when talking to Nicodemus?

 

[Trying2DoRight]

We are eternal beings body and soul/spirit.We continue on as the same person throughout eternity....we do not come back as a butterfly or something else.

The bible teaches a bodily resurrection.

I really do not see your reasoning for injecting this here at this point in time in the discussion but...What you have said is extremely vague and to some degree...has some exceptions to the rule!

 

[Trying2DoRight]

One other NOTE as to those buying into some form of reincarnation and the Christian faith ... if is a growing theme among the new Emerging Church! It is pure heresy, and should be treated as such. If anyone even entertains the thoughts/idea of reincarnation, it would be wise for them to repent and ask the Holy Ghost to remove the thoughts as far from your mind as the east is from the west! It can only lead to confusion of the death and resurrection of the body, and it could be harmful to those you come into contact with!

Shalom!

Why do you believe this?

 

[Trying2DoRight]

It's not a 'second birth' or 'born again', it's anothen:

Right here you have done away with the words of Jesus before you have done said all this other.

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Let us do this the scientific way to prove our theories one way or the other.

Let us establish what is being born the FIRST TIME.

Post all the specifications and boundaries that completely contains in all definitions the context to the FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

Post it here for me. Then we will proceed!

Thank you

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Also, establish for me when Jesus was born the FIRST TIME! He was a man so I would think that this would also apply to him and his own life as well as ours!