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Featured The USAGE of "draw" or "elkuo" in Scripture

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Some on this forum suggest that the word "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32 is being given an ability that may or may not be exercised and therefore is distinctly different in nature to actual coming but only provides potential for coming as though drawing is one thing and coming is another thing.

    1. This Greek word is found only 8 times in the New Testament.

    2. In every case the act of drawing is insepable from actual coming by that which is being drawn. The term "draw" identifies the source of power being exerted on the object being drawn which always comes as drawn.

    3. It is NEVER once used in the New Testament as bestowing anything upon the object drawn as "enabling power" but IS the power exerted in bringing the object.

    4. Any failure to come by drawing is either due to the lack of power by the one exerting the drawing force upon an object or the insufficient strength of the object used to draw with (as in the case of the net that broke).

    5. Since neither God or his grace has any inherent insufficiency of power what he draw always comes as there is nothing in creation that can overpower God and thus not come if drawn.

    6. Every able Bible student knows that actual usuage of words trumps any kind of potential definitions or etymological root meanings in establishing the actual meaning of words.

    In John 6:44 the "he" which is drawn is the "he" which is raised as none drawn by the Father fail to come or else they were never drawn and such is the case in John 6:64-65 where Jesus explicitly specify "some" who came by FALSE PROFESSION but never were drawn by the Father.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2014
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ONLY the sinners drawn by the father will come to jesus to get saved by Him, and ALL whom have been drawn in this fashion shall be saved by him!
     
    #2 Yeshua1, Jan 18, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The Arminian intepretation of "elkuo" or "draw" is a flat out denial of the very inherent meaning of the word "draw" because the Arminian intepretation denies that anything is coming and thus nothing is actually being drawn. Their interpretation divorces the inherent meaning from the word "drarw" and instead defines it as merely an impartation or transferral of NEUTRAL ABILITY or enablement that may or may not come and thus drawing is nothing more or less than conveying POTENTIAL without anything actually coming or drawn.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2014
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :wavey:What a wonderful truth and portrayed biblically solid in a way that cannot be easily resisted.....:thumbs::wavey::love2:
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Jan 18, 2014
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Hello Biblicist,

    I agree that this word means to “draw” rather than enable. I do not actually see how the definition is remotely debatable. I have seen it presented that God basically drags (which is a legitimate definition of the word) men because they are dead (see ‘Must the H.S. enable sinners…” thread for example). I have also heard it explained this drawing is the will of God which changes the will of man so that men willingly believe, upon believing they are regenerated (Spurgeon “The will of God…”, for example). Some go farther than Spurgeon to present this work of God as regeneration prior to belief (e.g., Arthur Pink, and I’d assume my first example). I understand why some may object to the picture of God dragging an unwilling man and forcing him to believe (which I think to be a misunderstanding of Calvinism), but it is not hard to see why this picture arises (in my opinion).

    How do you think that God draws men? Do you think that God saves us, we are born again and regenerated, and then we believe - as per Pink, Boettner, and I think Sproul (not sure about Sproul, I can’t remember). Or do you think that Spurgeon is correct in God working within the hearts of men to change their wills so that they willingly believe, they come and are saved?
     
    #5 JonC, Jan 18, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Hi Jon,

    In essence drawing is a creative command of God within the heart that produces an immediate and direct revelation (2 Cor. 4:6) or knowledge of God (Jn. 17:3) in the person of Jesus Christ and His work that is transformative/regenerative in nature resulting in spiritual union between the spirit of man and God (Jn. 3:6). Human instruments bring the gospel to the EXTERIOR of the elect but God empowers it INTERNALLY so that it does not come in word only but "in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:4-5).
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2014
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. There is not ONE text in all of scripture in which the drawing of God necessitates coming to Christ - it merely allows for it.

    2. There is not ONE text that says that "Drawing of God" is meant to force the one drawn to take some action - against their will.

    3. There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says that if the person who is drawn - does not come to Christ - then it is a sign of God's failure.

    4. There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says "all whom God draws Will COME to Christ".

    What is worse!

    The Calvinist bend-wrench of John 12:32 that takes 'I will Draw ALL mankind to me" and turns it into "I will draw only the arbitrarily elect FEW of Matt 7 that will one day be saved" - revises the text down so far that it is tantamount to a universalist statement.

    Because "ALL mankind" is redefined to be those only who are arbitrarily selected and will go to heaven. And so "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto ME" becomes "I will take ALL mankind to heaven"!! Because "All mankind" has been "redefined" as "only those that go to heaven".

    The bend-wrench done to John 12:32 makes almost any statement - "Calvinist".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jan 18, 2014
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    1. The only ones who can come are those given - Jn. 6:37-40
    2. The only ones who can come are those drawn - Jn. 6:44
    3. All others cannot come and will not come BECAUSE they were never given
    and never drawn- Jn. 6:36; 64-65
    4. He who is given and drawn EQUALLY are "raised up at the last day" - vv. 39
    b, 44b and NONE are lost - v. 39
    5. Hence, all who are drawn equal "all" who are taught (v. 45a) and all who are taught are all who have "heard" and learned" and none of that "all" fail to come to Christ (v. 45b) and all who come to Christ NONE are lost (v. 39).





    We teach no such doctrine. We teach that drawing is God changing the heart which in turn freely chooses to come to Christ.






    There is scripture that teaches that all who believe not and all who are false professors were NEVER drawn, NEVER impelled, NEVER taught, NEVER learned, NEVER heard of the Father - Jn. 6:64-65 AND "him" that is drawn is "him" that is raised up in the resurrection of life - Jn. 6:44b.





    "except the Father which hath sent me draw HIM: and I will raise HIM up at the last day." - Jn. 6:45

    1. Him given equals "him" raised up at the last day - Jn. 6:39b and NONE ARE LOST

    2. Him drawn equals "him" raised up at the last day - Jn. 6:44b and NONE ARE LOST.










    The context demonstrates the "all" is the same "all" in John 6:37-39 and the same "all" in John 6:45a which EXCLUDES "some" as in John 6:64-65. So your interpretation is just false.





    The term "all" is not interpreted by us to mean "all mankind" as John 6:64-65 explicitly denies that "some" of mankind are included in this all. Instead, "all" is contextually restricted to "all" the elect which are called out of "ALL races, genders and classes" of mankind - Rev. 5:9. Hence, this charge of universal salvation is a pure figment of your fertile imagination that you force upon us without a shed of evidence
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    True.

    True.

    False, you cannot seem to distinguish between being given and being drawn, they are not the same thing.

    False, not every person drawn shall be raised up, but those who come.

    False, not all who are drawn hear and learn. Only those drawn who hear and learn of the Father come to Christ.

    You can continue to repeat your fallacy over and over again, and it will still be a fallacy.


    Not really, Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate cannot will to have a new heart, so God must necessarily force their will to change against their will. God does not persuade them in your system, as the unregenerate are unable to be persuaded. They must be forced.

    John 6:64-65 does not mention being drawn, so cannot support your argument.

    John 6:44 says no man can come unless he is drawn, but it does not say all drawn shall come. You can insist these are the same until the end of time, and you will be wrong until the end of time.

    This is verse 44, not 45. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

    Correct.

    False, not all drawn come and are therefore not raised up. Only those drawn who come to Jesus are raised up. These are also the ones given.

    The "all" in John 6:37 are the ones "given". Yes, they are the same persons who hear and are taught in vs. 45. Verse 64 speaks of men who do not believe, and verse 65 says only those to whom "it" was given can come to Jesus. What is the "it"? Jesus's words which are spirit and life shown in verse 63.


    The ones "except it were given" in verse 65 is explained in verses 39-40:

    Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Vs. 39 tells us that the ones "given" will be raised up the last day.

    Vs. 40 says those who believe on Jesus will be raised up the last day.

    Therefore, God gives the ones who believe. Simple.
     
    #9 Winman, Jan 19, 2014
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  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You were doing fine up to this point. Here you simply make an complete unbiblical assertion without any Biblical support (because there is none) and think you can rewrite John 6:64-65! Here are some facts no Arminian can overturn concerning John 6:64-65.

    1. This is an example, proof that not all mankind are drawn by the Father as there are "some" explicitly pointed out that were still in unbelief and according to Christ's explanation in verse 65 were NEVER drawn (taught, heard, learned, impelled, persuaded, etc.) by the Father as verse 65 is a direct reference to verse 44 as the explanation of the unbelief of some in verse 64.

    2. The words "therefore I said" demands a previous reference to verses 44-45.

    3. The word "therefore" demands an explanatory reason is being given to explain why "some" in verse 64 remain in unbelief "from the beginning" even to the present time of speaking.

    4. The words "come to me" are synomous with "believe in me" and the word "cannot come" is synonmous with "believe not" in verse 64.

    Any objective reader can easily see that verse 65 is given as explanatory of the state of unbelief by "some" of his disciples in verse 64. However, this does harmonize with the Arminian forced interpretation of John 6:44-45 and so they deny and pervert it as they do John 6:44-45.

    This fallacy is the foundation for every fallacy that follows in your post.



    Him that is drawn is "him" that is raised just as "him" that is given in verse 39 is "him" that is raised. The parallel is exactly the same and so your interpretation is false and thus the following reasonings are based upon the same false interpretation.




    Two problems:

    1. "it" is singular and therefore the antecedent cannot be the plural "words" in verse 63 as you suggest.

    2. "it" has reference to what must be "given" for them to come and that is "faith" as the problem is they "believed not" in verse 64.

    3. Verse 65 is given as a direct explanation of the unbelief "from the beginning" of those in verse 64. However, you attempt to divorce verse 65 as explanatory of verse 64 and make it applicable to something else never stated in the preceding context.




    You are reversing the contextual cause and effect.

    1. "shall given" is future tense and thus the consequence of "given" but you reverse it.

    2. Being given PRECEDES coming as coming precedes being raised up.

    3. All who come to Christ in faith in verse 40 are those "given" that "SHALL" come to Christ in verses 37-39.

    The only way you can deal with John 6:29-65 is to pervert, deny, distort, reverse, and change the Word of God. That is why your interpetations cannot be exegetically proven but are in direct contradiction to exegetical evidence.
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Again, you assume your view is correct, when that is the question. Verse 65 does not say one word about these unbelievers never being drawn. Show me where it says that in verse 65.

    Yes, verse 44 says no man can come unless drawn, but that does not mean a person who does not come was not drawn. A child could understand this.

    The "it" that was given in vs. 65 is knowledge through the word of God shown in vs. 63. This is also shown in verse 45, only those men who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus. Men learn of God from the scriptures, men are not supernaturally zapped with this knowledge. The knowledge of God also enable a man to believe, no man can believe what he has never heard (Rom 10:14).

    Show where men are given knowledge outside the word of God in scripture.

    Because they refused to hear and learn. God teaches, but man has to hear and learn. Men are not zapped with knowledge, you cannot show that in scripture.

    They cannot come because they did not hear and learn from the Father.

    Any objective reader can easily see verse 65 does not support your view. It does not say;

    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except FAITH were given unto him of my Father.

    Now that is what you wish verse 65 were saying, but it doesn't say that. God could have easily said "faith" here if he wanted us to know that was what was given. In your view God is not intelligent enough to plainly say he gave faith to certain men.

    No, God did not say faith, because he is not speaking of faith. The word "it" refers back to Jesus's words in verse 63. No man can believe unless he were given the word of God, faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17). But the man must hear and learn (vs. 45) to come in faith to Jesus.


    Wrong. All that are given are raised up. All that see the Son and believe on him are raised up, but it is not said that all that are drawn are raised up.

    We say the "word" of God even though the scriptures are thousands of words. This argument easily fails.

    They could not come unless the word of God were given them, but they must hear and learn to come. A man who will not hear and learn will not believe.

    You try to divorce verse 64-65 from vs. 63 where Jesus said the flesh profits nothing, his "words" were spirit and life. You must hear and learn from the Father to come to Jesus (vs. 45).

    The "it" that was given was the word of God (vss. 45, 63). No man can come unless the word of God were given them, but the man must hear and learn from the word of God to come.

    No, it simply says all who are given shall be raised up. It does not say they are given faith at all. You cannot show that.

    However, vs. 40 clearly says those who see Jesus and believe shall be raised up.

    You cannot conclude that faith was given, it is not said. But you can can conclude that all who believe are given, because they are both raised up.

    It is you that is denying the word of God, that is the "it" in verse 65. That is how men hear and learn in vs. 45 as well.

    Men are not zapped with knowledge, they learn from the word of God.

    2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    You are trying to prove that men are supernaturally zapped with faith, when the scriptures say the scriptures are ABLE to make man WISE unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

    Someday you are going to realize that Calvinism is FALSE DOCTRINE.
     
    #11 Winman, Jan 19, 2014
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    1. "therefore" in verse 65 draws a conclusion to what has just been stated in verse 64.

    2. The issue just stated in verse 64 is in regard to unbelief or failure to come to Christ in faith. The conclusion drawn in verse 65 is that failure to come to Christ in faith is due to the Father NEVER having given "it" (faith) so they could "come to me" as "faith" is equal to "come to me" just as "believed not" is equal to not coming to me.

    3. The "it" needed by the Father is "to come to Christ" which is synonomous with "FAITH" just as "no man can come to Christ" is equal to unbelief in Christ.

    4. "I said unto you" brings the reader back to verses 44-45 as the only solution for remaining in unbelief as "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME" apart from this solution and those in verse 65 "therefore" did not receive that solution.

    This is so obvious that only a blind biased reader fails to see it.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
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  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    LOL, you point out the word "therefore" in vs. 65, but conveniently ignore the word "But" in vs. 64 that connects it to what Jesus said in vs. 63;

    Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Yes, the word therefore does connect verse 65 to 64, but the word "But" in vs. 64 connects it to vs. 63, which shows the "it" given in vs. 65 is the words of Jesus or the word of God.

    Nice try though. Maybe you can fool a few simple Calvinists with bogus arguments like this, but you will have a more difficult time with non Cals. We tend not to be brainwashed.

    You really are not a Biblicist at all.
     
    #13 Winman, Jan 19, 2014
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And of course "God draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jan 19, 2014
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    And your point is.......? Do you think that overrules the grammar and relationship between verses 64-65 as pointed out? Sorry!

    Verse 63 demonstrates the failure of unbelief in verse 64 was due to false profession IN THE FLESH and the flesh profiteth nothing. They were "in the flesh" and are still "in the flesh" as their profession of faith as disciples was a product of the flesh not of the Father's work - giving, drawing as explained in verse 65.

    In contrast the work of the Father in drawing is by the Spirit and the Spirit empowers the Gospel in the heart so that it does not come in "word only but in POWER and IN SPIRIT and IN MUCH ASSURANCE."
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    1. There is not ONE text in all of scripture in which the drawing of God necessitates coming to Christ - it merely allows for it.



    NOT according to Jn. 6:37-40. According to John 6:37-40 the only ones who "CAN come" are those "DRAWN" by the Father. The text does not say "no one CAN come to me unless He is GIVEN to Me by the Father"

    And as we see in John 12:32 God "Draws ALL mankind unto Him"

    Details matter.

    Indeed.


    And as we see in John 12:32 God "Draws ALL mankind unto Him"

    True. But there "are no others" because John 12:32 God "Draws ALL mankind unto Him"

    You say of the wicked of those in rebellion against God that
    Making God the cause of His own lament. Esp in this case for they are Jews.

    There is no "were never Drawn" text in all of scripture - much less in John 6 -- you are quoting "you" to make up for the lack. I keep calling that "extreme inferences and taking liberties with the text".

    All squares are rectangles - not all rectangles are squares.

    All given are drawn - not all drawn are given.

    The "given" state is qualified in John 6 as those who are drawn, who see, who believe, who are raised up on the last day.

    All who are taught - were first drawn... but no text says that all drawn - are taught of God.

    Not even one such text in all of scripture - you are 'quoting you' not the text of John 6 to come up with that.

    [FONT=&quot]44 ""[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one can come[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Me unless the Father who sent [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Me draws[/FONT][FONT=&quot] him[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and I will raise him up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]45 ""It is written in the prophets, " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and learned[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from the Father, comes to Me.[/FONT]


    Does not say - "all drawn will be raised up on the last day".

    details matter.

    It says
    1. of those that COME to Christ     that none of them come without that DRAWING
    2. O those that COME To Christ that Christ will raise them up on the last day.


    It does NOT say "all drawn will come to Christ".

    It does NOT say "all drawn will be raised up on the last day".

    Details matter.


    Indeed the ones "Given by the Father" appears to be just as highly "qualified" and narrow as you state above.


    Only the sense that those who come and are raised up - were out that much larger group that were drawn.


    All squares - are rectangles.

    Not all rectangles are squares.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Jan 19, 2014
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Calvinist unversalist statement in John 12:32

    By downsizing the "ALL mankind" of John 12:32 - to "just the saved who will be raised up on the last day - Calvinism turns John 12:32 into a universalist statement "If I be lifted up I will raise up ALL mankind on the last day".

    Because they are redefining the "All" of John 12:32 to "just those ALL who are raised up on the last day". So then the "All mankind" becomes "I will raise up ALL mankind on the last day"

    I don't see any way around that.

    And so you claim that the "ALL mankind" of John 12:32 is just those in John 6 who "Will be raised up on the last day".

    Making a universalist statement out of John 12:32.

    But in Calvinism - because everything is redefined and downsized even their universalist bend for John 12:32 is still just the "few" of Matt 7 because there is almost no limit to the Calvinist model for bending the text.

    Thus "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me"
    becomes "I will raise up all mankind on the last day"
    which though universalist in form is all bent back to "and by that I mean the FEW of Matt 7" in the Calvinist text-morphing text-redefining model.

    Which should come up as a red flag to at least one Calvinist.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Jan 19, 2014
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You simply repeat disproven and exposed arguments as though repitition makes things true. I am through repeating the evidences that expose your error. John 6:64-65 proves every argument in your post is false as here are some Christ denies were drawn or ever drawn and that destroys the basis of every argument you present. You still provide no response to the exegetical and contextual based reasons I presented and proved that John 6:64-65 demands "some" of his own disciples NEVER were drawn.
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Oh, so you are your own final authority? Who'd of thunk it?

    I love how you suddenly have to deal with vs. 63. :laugh:

    Oh boy, we are really going off on a tangent now, you are introducing scripture that has nothing to do with John 6.

    We are supposed to "rightly divide" the word. This does not mean you can cherry pick scripture wherever you choose and slap it together like Johnny Cash's famous '49, '50, '51, '52, '53, '54, '55, '56, '57, '58, '59 Cadillac.

    [​IMG]
     
    #19 Winman, Jan 19, 2014
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, I could have just quoted verse 29 that faith "is the work of God" as only those "given" by God come to Christ (vv. 36-39) as only those drawn by God come to Christ (vv. 44-65) and thus faith is the work of God.

    You should know as you change cars every post.
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
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