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Christ versus Arminians in John 6:44-45;63-64

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 21, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The Arminians on this forum interpret verse 63 to be exactly what Christ promised the Father would do in verses 44-45 to ALL MEN which they claim "given" in verse 65 refers to and thus the Father "gave" this to those disciples in verse 64.

    However, Christ directly denies in verse 65 that according to his own understanding of verses 44-45 that this was "given" (v. 65) to those in verse was "given" to those in verse 64 and that is why they did not initially believe or do believe presently.

    1. This proves that the Arminian interpretation of verses 44-45 is false because it is directly contradictory to Christ's denial that this was "given" to those in verse 64.

    2. This proves that the Arminian interpretation of "all" in John 12:32 is also false because in John 6:64-65 is an example where "some" had not been "given" the very thing that Arminians demands is given to "all" men without exception in John 12:32.

    3. The Arminians are asserting was "given" to those in verse 64 according to their interpetation of John 6:44-45 and John 6:63 exactly what Christ is denying was "given" them in verse 65
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 21, 2014
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Your arguments rely too heavily on the idea of not quoting the actual text apart from a snippet - and most declaring your view of the text.

    I prefer the text itself.

    John 6

    The starting context is the choice of the lost - to receive Christ.

    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    =======================================


    The start for lost humanity is not believing, and not coming to Christ. But as all are drawn - well some of those who do not believe - will choose to believe.


    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



    Not all drawn will come -- but all that the Father gives To Christ will come.

    ==================================


    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    That which the Father "Gives to CHRIST" are those that "SEE -- AND BELIEVE" and come to Christ.




    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48 I am that bread of life.
    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    ..
    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not.

    For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    Those who come to Christ, hear, believe, and are taught of God - and are given eternal life are said to be "Given to Christ" by the Father in John 6.

    But what the text does not say is "All DRAWN will come" or that "All DRAWN will hear, believe and be raised up on the last day".

    ========================================


    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
     
    #2 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Every single solitary definition of "disciple" in the New Testament requires that an EXTERNAL PHYSICAL hearing, learning, thus teaching of the gospel had been PROFESSED in baptism. That is the interpretation of the Arminians of John 6:44-45 which they claim verse 63 proves was given to those in verse 64 and yet Christ denies that his own understanding of John 6:44-45 and 63 was "given" to those in verse 64.

    Bob, cannot refute this and so he is simply trying distraction and confusion in order not to deal directly with the OP and every unbiased reader can see easily what Bob is doing.

    I challenge Bob and other Arminians to deal directly with the dilemma I have set before you and it is a dilemma for your position if you will be HONEST and if you will deal with it directly (unlike how Bob is responding).
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jan 21, 2014
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    If you argue that "heard....and learned" are not inclusive in the meaning of "draw" in verse 44 then you are teaching that man can come to Christ without being drawn by the Father.

    If you admit that "heard....and learned" are inclusive in the meaning of "draw" then you are admitting that EXTERNAL hearing and learning of the gospel is not what Christ meant in John 6:44 as those in verse 64 EXTERNALLY heard, learned and were taught the gospel and publicly professed in the gospel as that is the only way to be publicly acknowledge as "his disicples" and yet Christ claimed they were never drawn by the Father (v. 65). Thus your interpretation of drawing is proven false.

    Finally, in the 20th century in the country of New Guinea there was a whole civilization of head hunters who killed gospel missionaries and later those who killed them were saved and acknowledge that their father's and grandfathers never knew of any gospel, any Christ, any cross and this historically proves your interpetation of "all men without exception" in John 12:32 is false just as John 6:64-65 proves it is false as here are "some" never drawn by the Father and yet the were EXTERNALLY taught, heard and learned the gospel from either or both John the Baptist and Jesus and publicly professed so as that is the only possible way to be acknolwedge by Christ to be "HIS disicples".
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    jesus defined for us that "all " would be drawn unto Him when he was lifted up upon the Christ...

    Who would be those that came to him and to get saved by Him?

    Those whom the father elected/chosen to be found in Christ before foundation of the world!
     
    #5 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, if having "heard....and learned" of the Father is not inclusive in "draw" then none can come to Christ as Christ presents "draw" as the only possible way men can come to Christ.

    In contrast, if having "heard....and learned" of the Father is inclusive in "draw" then mere EXTERNAL hearing the gospel, and learning the gospel in somuchas making public profession of receiving the gospel cannot be regarded as synonymous with "draw" either as those in John 6:64 professed all of that and yet Christ denies they had ever been drawn by the Father - v. 65.

    Hence, this is a complete and utter repudiation of the whole interpretative view of John 6:44-65 by Arminians.

    Remember, it is always the stubborn "little details" that always expose false arguments concerning any given text or context that may be the subject of debate.
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2014
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