Featured Do All Calvinists Hold that regeneration seperate from saved by God?

Brother, the answer is there in John 1:13, the verse you posted. Man is born again/born from above, not by the will(insert free will here) of man, but of God. Man is completely passive in that new birth. We cry out to God because He has already begun a work that He will accomplish.

 

No, the above ILLUSTRATES the very theme of Jn 3, one must first be born from above before one can enter or even see the kingdom of God. V 13 shows that God had already wrought within those 'being saved' in v 12, as in:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

"It behoveth you to be born from above."

 

Nevertheless, this scripture is clear, it is to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name that God gave the power to be born again and become the sons of God. Faith precedes regeneration.

It is clear that unregenerate men can believe, and when they do, then God gives them the power to be born again.

You can deny all you want, but that is exactly what this scripture says.

 

Plus, read how verse 13 states they were born of God. They were born of God to now receive Him. Then, once they received Him, they became the sons of God.

As I stated earlier, regeneration ain't conversion..."

 

Pay very close attention to the first three words in verse 13, "which were born". That had already taken place. This caused them to be able to receive Him.

 

No Willis, that is not what it says. They did not receive the power to become the sons of God until AFTER they received Jesus and believed on his name.

Vs. 13 is simply explaining what becoming a "son of God" is, it is to be born again, which only God alone can do.

Believing on Jesus does not make you born again, but the moment you believe on Jesus God will give you the power to be born again. This is HIS will. If God had not decided to make those who believe born again, you could believe on Jesus all day long and nothing would happen. Only God can make you born again.

You don't have the right to wrest scripture Willis.

 

Once you go the path of error, it just gets worse and worse.

You would have to believe that a person can be regenerated and born again and not be a son of God if your view is correct Willis.

You believe this scripture is saying a man must be born again, so that he can receive Jesus and believe on his name, so that he then can be given the power to become a son of God.

That is ridiculous and you KNOW it. That would be being born of God, and yet not be a son of God. Absurd to say the very least. And KY believes a person can walk around for years like Cornelius, born of God, but not yet a son of God, because he had not yet received Jesus and believed on his name.

Pure foolishness.

 

No, what's clear is how incredibly shallow/spontaneous, totally lacking in any serious thought on your part with the passage. It's that 'snatch and regurgitate' tunnel vision spewing hatred at Sovereign Grace showing through as always.

Your philosophy is that man 'by his own will' (v 12) chooses to be born 'not of his own will' (v 13).

 

Brother, the new birth gives a new heart. The old heart was hard and stony, and couldn't received the seed...the engrafted word. The new heart is fleshly, is able to receive that word(Matt. 13), where someone through the preaching of the gospel plants a seed and others water it, all with the Word of God.

John 1:12, 13 backs that up, too. Why kick against the goads, Brother? Re-read that passage in John 1.

 

And you believe a man like Cornelius can be born again for years (as this is the only way he could believe and do righteous works) and yet he is not a son of God until he actually receives Jesus and believes on his name. That is ridiculous.

Admit it, you believe a man can be born again of God and not yet be a son of God don't you?

And I believe what Jesus said, the man who believes shall be saved, and the man who believes not shall be damned. That sounds like God is calling the shots to me.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sure sounds like God is the one who is deciding who is saved and who is not to me in this verse. How 'bout you?

 

That sounds nice Willis, only it is not found in the scriptures anywhere. You are beginning to sound just like Yeshua1 who always parrots Calvinist cliches without a word of scripture to support it.

Your interpretation of John 1:12-13 is ridiculous and illogical, you believe that a man is born again of God, so that he is enabled to receive Jesus and believe on his name, so that he can receive power from God to "become" a son of God.

So, you have a man who is born of God, who is not a son of God. Now that is plain STUPID.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And I thought I would add 1 John 3:2 just in case you try to argue that becoming a son of God is some future event. The scriptures say we are sons of God NOW.

 

Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, et al were regenerated and weren't filled with the Holy Spirit. Explain THAT???

 

In verse 12 it states, "As many that received Him"...Who were the ones that received Him? Those who were born of God. Those that received Him, were already born of God via the new birth/regeneration/born from above.

 

Keep the perjoratives out of this....

 

Yes!

No ! It's biblical!

There's nothing for me to admit Winman, I've never been secretive concerning my soteriology. 'You must FIRST be born from above'.

...ok.. I've never questioned God's 'calling the shots', He alone has chosen who are the children of the heavenly Zion.

I believe your point has been lost in your facetiousness.

Do you believe that Christ is saying 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved' from eternity in hell?

Do you believe that Christ is saying 'he that believeth not shall be damned' to eternity in hell?

If so, on what scriptural grounds do you insert eternal consequences into the passage?

 

Ridiculous Willis. You believe that a person is born of God, but until they actually receive Jesus and believe on his name they are not sons of God.

KY recognizes the difficulty. The scriptures are clear that some men believed in God and did good works for YEARS before they heard the gospel and believed on Jesus. Therefore he believes a man can be born again of God for YEARS, and yet not be a son of God. This is absurd.

Willis, verse 12 says God gave those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name the power to BECOME (following) the sons of God. So how could they have been born of God?

Can you be born of God and not a son of God? Explain how that works Willis.

 

I notice that when a believer in Calvinism is faced with the Scriptures that a person can do good and follow after the One true God without having received the new birth (seeing how the HS rebirth was not yet given until after Jesus Christ was glorified), that a feeling wells up inside of them, that if a person can believe prior to regeneration, then somehow this cancels out God's Grace. Sending Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the whole world is God's Grace. Believing this is inviting God's Grace to do a completed work in you, and this begins with God regenerating the believer and sealing that believer with the Holy Ghost rebirth, placing a seal of ownership upon that believer forever.

 

We agree.

It's ridiculous and you know it. How can a man be "born of God" and not be a "son of God". That's utterly illogical.

I know you haven't, and I commend your honesty, even if it is totally nonsensical and could not possibly be true.

But you believe man choosing usurps God's sovereignty. I am showing you that it does not. God had decreed those that believe on Jesus will be saved, those who do not shall be damned. God is calling the shots.

Try not believing on Jesus and entering heaven and see if you get away with it.

Yes, being saved means to be forgiven our sins. We are no longer condemned and shall go to heaven. Those who do not believe are damned, they will go to hell forever.

What else could "saved" and "damned" mean here? Jesus has many times said those that believe shall not perish but have everlasting life, and many times he has said those that do not believe will go to eternal torment.

 

What's absurd is your shallowness. There's that 'snatch and regurgitate' tunnel vision spewing hatred at God's Sovereign Grace showing through once again, as always. You just can't wait to do it can you Winman; you're sooo anxious to dispute DoG you won't even pause to actually consider what the text is saying or if you're pitting scripture against scripture. You just want to stamp out Calvinism.

The term 'sons of God' is used in contrast to 'children of God'. Receiving Christ, belief and obedience of the gospel, gives them the potential to grow from children of God to becoming sons of God. 'Sons of God' denotes maturity in this context.

 

The problem is that the Calvinist believes TULIP more than scripture.

Now, there is a kind of inability, there really is. It is IGNORANCE. No man is born knowing of Jesus Christ and how to be saved. This is why Paul asked HOW (addressing ability) any man could believe on Jesus unless he had heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul mention any other condition that would prevent a man from believing on Jesus? NO. So man's problem is ignorance, men have to hear the gospel to be saved. But Paul does not hint or imply that there is anything else preventing men from believing.

So, men are born unable to come to God, because they are ignorant of the truth. But once they hear the truth they can choose to believe it or not.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The word of God takes away a man's ignorance if he will listen, and will make him wise to understand he will be saved if he places his trust in Jesus Christ to save him.