Featured Does God Love ALL sinners equally then?

So you are saying Steve that the WORD doesn't tell you the disposition of children?

 

*you're* :thumbs:

 

...and if all infants are elect as most teach, or are saved in some special dispensation of salvation as most who hold to Augustinianism teach, the same principle applies.

Your choices are a false dichotomy. The only two options are guilty and not guilty. Scripture is clear that is it. When we violate Gods law per Ephesians 1. We are guilty. You know all this already, though...

 

.This is what one is left with in holding to Augsinianism.

1. They go to Heaven due to a special dispensation not found in the Bible (grace apart from faith)

2. If at all, meaning they all perish for the crime of being conceived.

How anyone can hold to such a heionous doctrine built on a handful of poetic, non literal Psalms while rejecting precise, literal passages that show exactly when one dies spiritually is beyond reason. James does a step by step breakdown of the sin process in the very first chapter! Paul states precisely we are dead in OUR trespasses and sins in which WE used to walk. It doesn't get any more clearer than that.

 

Not sure of your position. Are you on the side of innocent until some unknown age, or all guilty from birth?

 

I don't like the term innocent as only Christ was innocent, but I believe infants are not guilty from conception and die in like manner Adam did as outlined in James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

 

Yes, but Paul says Rom5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" The only way the sin/death could be "passed" is through the blood of Adam. Through the blood of Christ the cursed debt of Adam's blood is paid in full, what is left to reckoned with is faith in Jesus Christ.

 

That text only says death passed to all men, and death by sin. The language and wording necessitates the same "all" in both, meaning universalism must follow in that view. The text should be understood...

Death - passed to all by sin
Life - passes to all by Christ

 

We are saved when we trust in Christ and enter His rest. I believe we are all saved the same way.

I have no Idea when we start to work as a child maybe at a point that we are responsible for our own actions. I'll let God decide that as a judge and jury decides when a child is to be tried as a adult but God is the perfect judge not like us humans.

So an infants has to start to work to have to enter His rest they have not so they are already in His rest.

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

This idea that sin is passed through the blood of the father is pure superstition. Jesus was made of the "seed of David according to the flesh"

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Jesus inherited DNA from David (and Adam) through Mary his mother. He was made of the very same flesh as us, he took on the nature of Abraham's seed (not Adam), and was made like his brethren (the Jews) in "all things". He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

God in heaven cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13). Jesus could be tempted and feel the very same temptations and lusts of the flesh we do. He inherited this from Mary his mother, but Jesus never obeyed these lusts when it would cause him to sin.

Sin is not something you are, sin is an ACT, it is transgression of the law.

1 Jhn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Again, sin is not some physical property you can inherit from your parents, sin is an action, it is transgression of the law.

Those who teach that somehow Jesus was different from us in his humanity are denying that Jesus came in the flesh. The scriptures warn us that this is the spirit of antichrist.

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jesus came in "the same" flesh as us (Heb 2:14), if we are born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. I refuse to believe this, the scriptures say Jesus was "holy".

 

Not sure I follow, so you are arguing that David was Jesus father through generations of insemination?

 

I am arguing that Jesus had David's DNA. And not just David, he inherited DNA all the way back to Adam.

The Jews clearly understood the Messiah would be a physical descendant of David. What was the most common name they called Jesus? Son of David.

Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Mat 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

Mat 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

This nonsense that Jesus escaped a sin nature because he did not have a human father or blood from a human man is pure superstition. The scriptures clearly say Jesus was "made" of the "seed" of David according to the "flesh".

We all inherit 50% of our DNA from each parent. You also inherit 25% of each grandparent's DNA from your parents, including your mother's father.

The scriptures clearly say Jesus took on "the same" flesh as us. Yes, he is God, but he was also 100% human.

 

I'm not so sure your pov is any less "superstitious" to use your own word. The scripture also declares Jesus to be without father and without mother - Heb7:3.

Have you ever wondered why God held Adam accountable for sin passing to all men and not Eve? Eve did sin first, but God pointed the finger toward Adam.

 

Hebrews 7:3 is speaking of Melchisedec. Melchisedec was probably not Jesus, for the scripture says he was "made like unto the son of God" which distinguishes him from actually being the son of God.

Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

As for Eve, we are plainly told that Eve was deceived, while Adam was not. This is why Adam was held accountable. This shows there must be knowledge for sin to be imputed to a person and why little babies cannot be guilty of sin.

And you make a serious error, the scriptures do not say SIN passed to all men, they say DEATH. HUGE difference.

 

So Melchisedec was without father and without mother, and was made like unto the Son of God? And abides a priest continually?

Death is due to sin. No sin, no death.

 

I agree that Melchisedec sounds like God, having no mother or father, nor beginning or end of days. But it would be redundant to say Jesus is "like" Jesus.

That would be like telling Mickey Mantle that he hits "like" Mickey Mantle. That would be obvious and redundant.

Yes, death is the wage of sin. Nevertheless, Romans 5:12 says "death" passed upon all men, "for that all have sinned". This is where Augustine made a huge error using a flawed Latin text.

Here is an article from Dr. J. W. MacGorman a professor of New Testament and Greek for over 50 years at Southwestern Seminary;

Augustine' theory of Original Sin was based upon a flawed Latin text that implied all men sinned "in Adam". Greek scholars agree this is not the proper intepretation of Romans 5:12 and that it properly teaches that death passed on all men because they have committed personal sin.

If all men sinned with Adam in the garden as Augustine believed, then Paul contradicts himself when he says Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb in Romans 9:11;

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Not only does this interpretation of Romans 5:12 and Romans 9:11 contradict each other, but Dr. MacGorman points out that Paul had argued for three chapters that all men were sinners in chapters 1 through 3 and never mentioned Adam once!

We are either dead because of Adam's sin, or our own personal sin, but not BOTH!

 

We are dead because of Adam's sin. We sin because it is in our DNA passed down from Adam's DNA. Here is the proof, name one person having an earthly farther who has not sinned.