Featured Do Arminians Hold to God changing His mind, having different plans?

I agree with what you have stated as you have stated it.Men have self will,it is not free from their nature. I take a stand as I do in that I believe the term is used in a rebellious way against revealed truth.

The concept of a will completely free from any restraint is a philosophical invention of fallen men. Men desire to cast off any and all divine restraint as against the law of God.

Of course we make choices. Jesus always submitted His will to the Father.

38 For I came down from heaven,not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


The temptation of Satan was.....act independently of the Fathers will. Jesus resisted this as a sinful desire being presented. LK4...

A christian while able to sin here on earth, is never"free" to sin. I read where we are "free" to serve.

I think to use the term "free will" is to muddy the water and spend much time haggling over terms,and semantics...and in the end opens the door to man centered ideas that I see as anti-scriptural at their very core.


The Holy perfect nature of God cannot sin...His Divine will..CANNOT..sin. To me...that solves the puzzle.:thumbsup:

 

Well Dog...you can say that over and over,however it does not advance your case ,does it? It might be more helpful to state your position here.:wavey:

Because you can choose blackberry jam over apricot on your english muffin...does not indicate your will is somehow absolutely free from your nature.

 

People try to defend free will to the extent it sorta becomes their golden calf. Free will was what got us here to begin with, Adam exercised it, and welp, here we are now.

The thing is this; God has always initiated any relations betwixt He and mankind. Adam and Eve, as soon as they heard His voice, ran and hid. It was God looking for them and not vice versa. God iniated the conversation with Noah, Abram, Moses, Paul et al. They couldn't exercise their free will to come to Him, but He had to go to them first.

Where was Goliath's free will at, as well as the other Philistines? What about the others when God chose Abram over everybody else? What about the others when God chose Noah?

All of them that were not of these people freely chose what they wanted to do.

 

Again, please show me a non C that believes otherwise??? Ever heard of Prevenient Grace??? God influences we respond... Really, C1 you're talking like Arminian maybe you should switch back...

 

Where is the rest of my post that you didn't address? The Philistines, and especially Gloiath, where was their free will to come to God. Where in the bible does it state God went to them to offer them a chance to repent? I can find nothing to support that.


The thing is Brother Benjamin is that we will resist God. However, there comes a time when He overrides us, not forcefully so, but lovingly so, and changes our want to's, our desires.

 

Okay Brother Benjamin, I have a question for you.

Those who have died since Christ's ascension, never hearing the name of Jesus Christ, never knowing He existed, where is their free will to come to Him?


*****Jeopardy music*****

 

This view is easily refuted by scripture. Satan was created "perfect" but was able to sin. The fallen angels and Adam and Eve were "very good" and yet were able to sin. So this idea that your nature is in control of your will is total error. Otherwise, Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve would have been utterly UNABLE to sin.

In fact, Jesus showed that a man can determine if he is a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

The words "either make" and "or else make" show that man has both option and ability to be what he wants to be.

So the scriptures show the will is in charge of the nature.

Once again, Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of scripture.

 

Completely bogus argument that you cannot answer either. Proves NOTHING.

Is this the kind of argument that persuaded you Calvinism is correct? If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will sell you for cheap.

 

Brother, I have repeatedly lobbed these things softly to you, expecting you to hit them outta the park, only for you to hit a slow roller back to the pitcher's mound.

Again, you have used Romans 10:14 a pleothra of times, why not here? Because it shows that no one can know of Jesus anyother way. If they have never heard of Jesus, and die w/o ever knowing He exists, they still go to hell anyways. I hate this as much as you do, seeing that neither of us desires to see one go there, but they do, not because made them go there, but they chose it.

The sooner you quit thinking that salvation consists of man thinking it sounds like a good deal, and then extends their hand and says "put'er there, we've got ourselves a deal", the sooner you'll realize salvation is all of God.

 

This is a contradiction. When it comes to salvation, Calvinists claim a sinner's nature prevents him from believing the gospel. But when Adam and Eve had a "very good" nature, this did not prevent them from sinning.

Make up your mind, does the nature control the will or not?

And God initiated relations with Adam and Even when they had a "very good" nature, and yet they sinned anyway. This destroys your argument that the nature controls the will. If your view was correct, it would have been absolutely impossible for Adam and Eve to sin.

Goliath could have become a Jew if he wanted to, there was nothing to prevent people from converting, and many did. Ruth converted to become a Jew.

Ruth 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

You seem to believe everything is fixed in concrete. Everyone makes decisions, this does not prove they could not have done differently.

 

I hit a slow roller?, you should hear your arguments from my perspective;

SWISH!

You are parroting Calvinists more and more. It's like you cannot think anymore.

You will argue that the nature controls the will when it comes to sinners, and then completely contradict yourself with Adam and Eve. If the nature controls the will, then Adam and Eve could not sin.

This is why you argue Jesus could not sin, because he had a perfect nature. You say he could not be tempted by Satan because he had a perfect nature.

But you contradict yourself with Adam and Eve. If your view is correct, Satan's temptation should have bounced off of both of them.

You do not see how totally illogical you have become.

 

Winman,do you put the pre-Fall Adam and Eve in the same category as Jesus Christ?

 

I believe what the scriptures say, they were "very good".

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If this argument that the nature controls the will is true, then it would have been absolutely impossible for Adam and Eve to sin.

This is what is wrong with Calvinism, it is built and supported on fallacies. It is the will that controls the nature, not the other way around.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul said the Gentiles DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW!

If Calvinism is true, it would be impossible for the Gentiles to sin. By NATURE they do the things contained in the law which are all good.

So scripture shows this teaching that the nature controls the will is absolutely false. It is a complete fallacy, yet Calvinists constantly use this bogus argument to support Total Inability.

What is amazing is that Calvinists cannot see how inconsistent and illogical they really are.

 

Let me try that again.

Brother winman, you have placed man on a pedestal and that God can do nothing unless/until he allows God to do it. You need to throw man off the Throne and rightfully put God there.


Quit worshipping the creature and start worshipping your Creator.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself Willis. I said no such thing and you know it. I believe all men sin and come short of the glory of God.

That said, I believe men become sinners when they are old enough to understand right from wrong (Deu 1:39) and willfully choose to sin.

If the nature controls the will, then Satan's temptation should have bounced right off of Adam and Eve, because they both had "very good" natures.

God said everything he made was "very good", are you calling God a liar?

Why don't you just admit this Calvinist argument is a fallacy and move on?

I have to go to work for a few hours, but I will be back later today.

 

I have said nothing to be shamed about Brother. It was you who has stated that God can do nothing unless sinful man submits to Him...iow, allows Him to. He can not save a man unless He allows God to. Who's in the proverbial "driver's seat" in that scenario?

You even stated that man has God's hands tied if they choose not to be saved. It is you that has man on the Throne, and not God, Brother. I don't mean to be nasty, but that's the logical conclusion to your doctrine.

 

Do we see how both Cals and non Cals do not even agree with their perspective camps as to how God's plan actually works? This should teach us all something. BOTH free will choice AND the sovereignty of God's election are established in the Scriptures. Just because it is impossible for us creatures to fully understand how God does this should not cause us to fret over it, we should just accept it and focus on preaching the gospel.

Do we fret over how Jesus can be both fully God and fully man? We accept it by Scripture.

Do we fret over a virgin birth? We accept it by Scripture.

Do we fret over a Triune God? We accept it by Scripture.

These things are a mystery, as is how God incorporates man's Choice and God's Election.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

But then you have to deal with Adam. Did God give Adam a free will to choose obedience verses sin? And if God did give Adam this ability, how does this work within God's sovereign plan to elect Adam to initiate the Fall?

 

God is always first in all things, how does this refute God giving a person a choice? God went to Judas, called Judas to believe, to be a disciple, yet God also new Judas would reject the call. The Calvinist chooses to disregard God's foreknowledge in all things.

Why do you believe God cannot call to belief, offer a choice, to those who he knows are not His Elect from the foundation of the world? Has not God allowed these men to see the truth, and yet they make a choice to reject the truth?

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive."

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

 

Adam while complete was untested.Adam was responsible to think God's thoughts after Him as an image-bearer.The result of not doing so was dying thou shalt surely die.

Jesus entered into His mediatorial work before the world was.Creation and the fall only took place because this was so.God was not surprised.

God had already elected a multitude of sinners In Christ.Satans rebellion and Adams fall into sin and death was not a surprise at all.

Jesus as the last Adam never missed the mark....