Featured Do Arminians Hold to God changing His mind, having different plans?

Winman,
To pull random verses out of the parables, or out of context...is to foolishly turn scripture into a poem that you give meaning to, rathjer than the meaning God has intended. You do it most all the time which is why your posts are mostly not responded to.

 

I don't think it is wise to take Romans 10:14 to such an extreme as to tie God's hands in redemption. I believe God has a provision for those unable to hear, not that all are saved either who do not hear. I don't know what that looks like, however, I don't believe God sends all to hell who never heard the gospel by another human's voice or by the ability to read the gospel. (Absolutely an opinion, no Scripture to back it up)

What I do know from Romans 10:14 is that those who do hear and reject will be condemned, and those who do hear and accept will be saved. What about all the others? God doesn't give us that much information. But God does command us to go and preach to as many as we can. A Just God will work out the rest.

 

Ok......so Adam had a freewill to choose?

 

No.See earlier post...free will does not exist.We do not live in a vacuum.

You can try and pick at it all you want, However it is not there.

Steaver......Can God sin? is His will "free" to sin?

 

Yes, your earlier response to my post did not suffice as good reasoning that Adam had no freewill choice, imo. You can insist Adam had no choice but to sin and I can insist that he did, but we must have a good argument presented for our beliefs and not just because we say so.

No, God cannot sin. But did God have freewill to choose how to create? So God does have freewill, correct? Or, was God limited to how He wanted to go about Creation? As God created Adam in His own image, I would suggest Adam also had freewill to make some decisions, i.e. eat the forbidden fruit or not eat.

 

Icon,I think it's pretty well agreed that Adam and Eve had classic free will before the Fall.

 

Cow manure. The scriptures I quoted dealt directly with man's nature. Gen 1:31 said everything God had made was "very good", so according to your view it would have been impossible for Satan, the fallen angels, and and Adam and Eve to sin. This easily refutes your view.

Romans 2 also refutes your view as Paul said the Gentiles by NATURE do the things contained in the law. The law is holy, just, and good (Rom 7:12). This utterly refutes your false doctrine that men cannot do good.

And you have repeatedly said men do not have free will, but God himself says men do have free will.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.


God said that any man of the Jews could bring an offering to the LORD, and he was to offer it of HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. That, my friend, is FREE WILL. You can deny all you want, but God himself shows man after the "fall" has free will.

And this free will pertains to worshiping God in truth, God said that he would ACCEPT this offering as an ATONEMENT for him.

So, this teaching that men are enslaved by a sin nature and cannot worship God in truth is utterly false and refuted by the words of God himself.

Calvinism depends on fallacies and the ignorance of people to survive.

 

Do you have a job Willis?

If so, who decided that you would have a job there? Your boss. You couldn't just walk in and start working, your boss CHOSE you to work there, and if he did not you would not have a job.

But did you also choose to work for your company? YES. You didn't have to take the job there, you could go somewhere else.

Does the fact that you decided to take the job that was offered to you make you the boss? NO WAY! Walk in and tell your boss you are in charge because you chose to work for him and see how that works out for you.

So once again, you are falling for false arguments. You could not have been saved unless Jesus died for you, and you could not be saved unless someone came and preached the gospel to you. God decided these things, God chose these things, just as your boss at work decided and chose to offer a certain job.

The fact that you responded to the gospel does not make you God's boss, just as choosing to work at your job does not make you the boss.

Quit letting people pull the wool over your eyes. Think.

 

Winman

Your posts usually are TK:laugh:

,

yes...man was created...very good:thumbsup: But as Rippon pointed out you with your wrong idea about the fall into sin and death post as if Adam did not fall into spiritual death.

Wrong winman...completely wrong.Whydo you not let me say my view.You or Van, or benjamin are the last persons I would ask to be my spokesmen:laugh:

You created a strawman already...so you refute nothing but your own imagination.

Like I posted earlier....this is a reading comprehension problem.Those words are in romans 2...but you rip it from it's context and now it is uncle winmans story time:laugh:

It is....

That the law is holy just and good has nothing to do with your statement here..seriously...this is incoherent.

It does not exist..correct...this verse you always misuse from LEv.

.has to do with an offering that was not mandatory by law...not what you twist it to say.

It says nothing about free will....it was not commanded by law, plain and simple
.

so no...you attempt to oppose truth by the words of winman, not the word of God.When you mis-read and pull it out of context, you get your own words...not God's.

 

steaver

Sorry it did not help.I am limited but try and post as simply and clearly as i can...but let me say this to clarify...

I did not insist this anywhere that I know of...did I?In fact I did not deny Adam had choice.

well as i did not insist on that point....but i do agree we should give a reason for what we believe....when I respond to Rippon I might help make it clearer for you also.

Glad we agree here Stv....or we would have much bigger fish to fry:thumbs:

STV.....from my understanding....God just expresses His purpose...he knows the end from the beginning.I do not view God as if He was a limited man....Like in Isa 55....
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I know you agree here also:thumbs:

As I understand the term ...NO....it does not exist in reality...it has origins in greek philosophy and gnosticism ....I reject it as described in 2 cor 10;
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

STV....In infinite God with infinite wisdom can never be said to be limited.
Look at it in a positive way instead.....His perfection and purpose is unblemished and unchanging...perfect in wisdom.

You might suggest that STV...but i would not because Of what I state here..that is why we compare ideas and understandings here:thumbs:

 

Rippon

Hello Brother R,

I understand that many good men who agree on most points of grace as we do from what I can see....have stated this idea.

I do not share it...let me offer why-

This I think of as the path of least resistance argument. I understand it like this.....

1]This idea and language of "free will" is a common idea among fallen men.

2] rather than fight about the origin of the idea itself...the mind of fallen alienated men suffering from the noetic effects of the fall....let's sort of just{give in} at least as far as Adam pre-fall.

3] If we give in on this language....{the argument goes} it really does not matter in that Adam fell from this condition of original righteousness,gen 1:31...into sin and death and bondage..rom 5.....so you still are left with man's will in bondage....

Rippon....I do not claim to speak for all who believe in the doctrines of grace, or all RB. If you notice...the solid and godly brother Reformed sought to get my attention on this exact thing earlier in the thread.:wavey:
I understand and can respect that idea they he and perhaps you hold in common....I just find it inconsistent with God's incommunicable attributes, and the eternal state.

To support your idea and much to my consternation...Sam Waldron used such language in his commentary on the 1689 confession of faith on this issue. His explanation when you work through it is solid....but I have not been able to dialog with him face to face on this.....but if the opportunity presents itself..I will:laugh:I do not believe it is necessary, or helpful to employ that language. The confession of faith speaks of it because it is in the public vernacular.
I have learned much and still learn from Sam Waldron over the years. Overall I am in agreement with most everything he has taught written or preached , and he might shoot holes in my understanding as well as You,and Reformed might,
I am open to correction however and if at any time you are not comfortable with anything I post ..by all means get in my face and demand clarification...lol. I will not report the post:laugh:

Adam when created had what has been spoken of as original righteousness. He had a will so was able to make choices but it was untainted by sin being yet untested.
I am not sure how to describe such a condition as we all died in Adam and our minds have been affected by sinful thought.
God would not have issued such a stearn and somber warning as He did..if the consequences of sin were not so harsh and destructive to our ability to commune with God.

So to better explain my stance here i can offer a few ideas that you can use or reject.

I start at the end of the bible and look backwards.

How does the bible describe us in the eternal state?

God being immutably Holy pure and wise..cannot sin, lie, or change.

in this way...God is wholly unable to be free ....to a point where he is in a position to not be Himself.He cannot deny Himself or His moral self consistency.

We are predestined to be conformed to the image of the true Image and likeness....the last Adam..the Lord Jesus Christ.

If we are predestined to be conformed to his holiness and be proper image bearers...he will present us we are told, without spot or blemish.

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

In heaven we will be totally unable to sin.We will be confirmed in a state of holiness in the last Adam...which the first Adam failed to be confirmed in when he existed in his original condition of original rightousness that was untested.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.



I love this portion of scripture and what it teaches. This is what it suggests to me. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, and yet...i will not turn away from revealed truth and have seen others write and think along this line of thought.

i do not claim any unique or original thought as i have been influenced by many teachers and writers along the way.If I did not accurately describe the ideas above it is due to my limitations...so sorry about that.I cannot do what I cannot do:laugh:

 

Anthony, the reason I responded to your previous comment about free will was not to defend the term itself, but rather to counter the radical view held by some Calvinists that man does not make any volitional choices. I know you do not believe that.

 

Rush me to the burn ward...

Who said Adam did not sin? Not I. Limp attempt to distract and divert from the true issue at hand, very limp.

Here is what you said verbatim;

You believe the will is controlled by the nature. You believe a sinner cannot believe in Jesus because their nature prevents them from believing, this is why you believe regeneration must precede faith.

But if this view is true, then Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve could not sin, because they were all created "very good" in God's own words.

So, your view is easily refuted by scripture.

Not at all.

Right, like the term "his own voluntary will" is difficult to understand. And saying the Gentiles "by nature DO the things contained in the law" is equally difficult. NOT.

Yes, the law is holy, just, and good, and Paul said the Gentiles were DOING the things contained in the law BY NATURE. They were doing GOOD.

Simply denying what scripture plainly says is not a good argument.

God says a man has "his own voluntary will" and you say it doesn't exist? Are you calling God a liar?

OK, it was not mandatory, and men gave it of their "own voluntary will". This argument is not helping you.

Makes no difference, they gave it own their own voluntary will. This means it was their own idea, God did not compel them to give it, and their nature did not prevent them from offering it as you falsely teach.
.

What a laugh, it is you that opposes truth and you know it. It is you that is trying to explain away God's word.

That's OK, you will stand before God someday. We'll see how your lame argument goes for you that day.