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- Thread starter steaver
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Are you sick in the head? Oh, that's your line.:smilewinkgrin:
JL,you are dead wrong. The elect alone are the only saved ones. There is no other category of saved folks. However, the elect do have other terms in Holy Writ such as : the Church, the Bride, the Body, the remnant, the objects of His mercy, the called according to His purpose, the predestined, the justified, the glorified, the sheep, all who were appointed for eternal life and many,many more.
convicted1
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Jesus did say He had other sheep not of this fold...but He was addressing Gentiles...the wild olive branches grafted in contrary to nature...iow, the Gentiles...but they are all still the elect, both Jews and Gentile...
convicted1
Guest
I agree that the Jews are God's elect...but not all of Israel is Israel. All who God chose by His free grace, both Jews and Gentiles, comprise the elect. There is no dual covenant where God has a covenant with the nation of Israel and the church. The promise...the covenant, is to a seed and not seeds. The promise, the covenant is with the church, the sheep, the elect, the body of Chrisr, etc...
convicted1
Guest
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:
I was off line when this was posted.Steaver has an agenda and not looking for an answer.
God has ....not offered...but commanded all men everywhere to repent ...of course.
The rom 1 passage says men are without excuse...not with a "choice'.Steaver makes an idol out of mans supposed choice, not realizing that man always chooses sin and false religion unless God has mercy.
James the others have answered you quite well......many names for the sheep, but all believers for all time were elected by the father and given to the Son.
There were elect saints before the nation of Israel was even formed...Noah, Abel etc.
There were elect saints before the nation of Israel was even formed...Noah, Abel etc.
James, I am not exactly sure what you are saying, but scriptures do show the will is involved in belief. That said, I define believe as trust or reliance, not just giving assent to a fact. You can believe an airplane can fly safely to Chicago, but that is not what the scriptures mean when they say believe on Jesus. To believe on Jesus is to commit yourself to him, trusting and relying that he will save you. It is like actually getting on the plane and putting your life in the hands of the pilots and of the aircraft.
Scripture shows the will is involved in believing. It is a choice I believe. This is shown in Luke 16;
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The rich man who died and went to hell requested that Abraham would send Lazarus from the dead to warn his five brothers, lest they also perish and go to hell.
Abraham said they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.
In other words, the word of God is enough evidence for any man to believe if he will choose to listen to it.
The rich man argued no, but if they saw a great miracle, if Lazarus returned from the dead, they could not help but be convinced.
But Abraham said, no, if they do not believe the word of God, then they will not believe a miracle either.
I believe this shows we choose what we want to believe. Deep down, all men know there is a God, but they love their sin more than him. So they put God out of their mind, they tell themselves it is all just a myth or fable. And even if God were to perform a miracle before their very eyes, they would choose to deny God, or the true gospel.
This is also what Paul shows in Romans 1;
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This verse says men have no excuse for unbelief. They can look all around them at creation and it is evident that there is a God, a super intelligence who designed the whole universe. There is more than enough evidence to convince and persuade any man. But they don't want to believe in a God, because they love their sin.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
So, it is not a matter of just believing or not, the scriptures teach that men do not LIKE to retain the knowledge of God. They don't want to think of God, they don't want to believe God is true, they put it all out of their mind.
Therefore, at some point God gives a man up and allows him to have his way. No longer does he try to persuade or convince a man to believe.
God has given us his word, and that is enough for any man to believe. If you will not believe that, God is not going to jump through hoops and perform miracles to convince you. It wouldn't work if he did.
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No, rather we believe that God will be faithful to His promises made to national Israel, so in that He has always called out a remnant from physical isreal to become saved from time of Jesus until now, and that in last days, he will bless national isreal by having them welcome back their messiah at his second coming!
Jesus prophesied unto them that they will say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord at his second coming unto them!
He's spot on about faith not being a personal choice but a deep conviction.
What exactly is contained in the law of Moses that could have kept his brothers out of hell?
But that is not what this passage argues. It argues that the rich man had sufficient evidence to believe.
Abraham shows faith is a choice, and tells the rich man if they will not believe the scriptures, then they would not believe a miracle as well.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
They all wrote of Christ. OT saints were saved the same way as NT saints by believing God would send a Messiah, or Christ to save them from their sins.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
No, it's not 'arguing' that at all, you are. Christ in parable form is reiterating the uselessness of the letter as He did here:
Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me Jn 5:39
The rich man was judged by his deeds just as we all will be. He had a heart problem, not a head problem. His case is exactly as presented in Mt 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
This passage absolutely argues that the word of God is sufficient evidence for any man to believe. The rich man asked that Lazarus return from the dead and warn his brothers. Abraham responds that they already have Moses and the prophets, which is referring to the OT scriptures. The rich man argues, NO, but if one went from the dead they would repent. Abraham says NO, if they do not believe the scriptures, then they would not believe if someone went to them from the dead. They would not even believe a miracle.
This shows that the will is involved in belief. It is not that they cannot believe, it is that they do not want to believe, they refuse to believe. It is a choice.
You know, Christ spoke in these riddles for the express purpose of preventing the multitudes from understanding, and it most certainly has worked with you. You're shallowness with this parable belies the fact that you've put zero thought or meditation into it nor have you compared scripture with scripture. It bothers you not in the least that your superficial interpretation pits scripture against scripture, it contradicts other scripture. If there was a law that could have made alive, Christ would not have had to die. The law worketh wrath, the letter kills, period.
Is this too deep for you to comprehend?:
19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day:
20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man`s table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life
The rich man was judged by his deeds, just as we all are going to be judged.
28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment. Jn 5 YLT
He lived scrumptiously, he practiced evil, he wouldn't even give Lazarus the crumbs off his table.
Kyredneck said:
Yes, parables were designed to hide the truth from unbelievers, but they reveal truth to believers.
This parable is not difficult, The rich man wanted Abraham to perform a miracle, to send Lazarus from the dead to warn his brothers. The rich man implies this miracle will cause them to repent. Abraham tells him that they have Moses and the prophets, and if they will not listen to them, neither will they listen to someone who returned from the dead.
Abraham shows that the will is involved with believing. The rich man and all his brothers had been provided with all the evidence they would ever need to believe God. God is not going to jump through hoops and perform miracles so that they believe. Abraham said that even if God did send someone from the dead, they would not hear. So, this proves men choose not to believe, not that they are unable.
This has nothing to do with the sermon on the mount which you have pulled out of context.
I would agree if the rich man had believed God's word he would have given to the poor and sick, but the scripture you quoted does not directly pertain to this specific parable.
And that is the point, the rich man did know he should care for others, but he put that out of his mind and only worried about himself. He knew he was violating God's law to take care of others. It wasn't he couldn't believe, it was that he wouldn't believe, because he loved his wealth and comfort more than God and his fellow man.
Nevertheless, Abraham's statements absolutely argue that belief is a choice.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
The Jews is His sheep He came into His own but His own received Him not.
If they were His they would not of turned their back on Him since they did Jesus was disowning those who were His.
We must eat to have life and Jesus is the manna that came down from Heaven to give life to the dead.
Jesus said that His words are Spirit and life the very life we need to live
I am not a sheep I am a dog who begged at His table and that is really who many of us are we are not natural branches we were included when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.
Some people think more highly of themselves than they ought to.
The Jews the natural branches who have not been cut out for unbelief are being put back when they no longer continue in their unbelief no longer being disowned. The remnant that bellieved have remained.
Why is the message first to the Jews then to the Gentiles, but in Christ we are the same?
The message to the Jews is they have been cut out not trying to convince them you are them and they are not the chosen when they are.
They will give you tons of scripture saying they are, here we are in the old testiment
Leviticus 19:34
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Numbers 9:14
“‘A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the Lord’s Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.’”
Other sheep is not the Gentiles, Gentiles is livig amoung the Jews. They are in Abrahams bussom.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
You were made alive when you died with Christ and raised again to live a new life.
Lord Christ my God help your people understand.
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convicted1
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Zactly, to use your saying. Faith is a gift of God, and not a choice.
Jesus said His words are Spirit, and they are life. Without eyes to see with, the bible to the unregenerate is akin to a Hallerquin romance novel.....
I have observed that in Calvinism many passages of scripture are taken to an extreme application to life, which leads to error. It is as if when God says, "Come now, and let us reason together..." the Calvinist demands, "No God, man cannot reason, man is incapable of reasoning, why would you make such a statement to man oh God?"
Ask a practicing Jew in Judaism if the ten commandments are foolishness to them, and then think about your claim.... "anything concerning the things of God is foolishness to him". Even the Mormon and the JW believe the ten commandments are true and from God, they would not say they are foolishness. This is what Calvinism creates in people, scripture gets distorted and misapplied to life.
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