Featured Total Depravity

Give me a break, all you have to do is read Romans 5 and it is easily seen Paul is speaking in legal terms.

Paul speaks of sin, righteousness, offence, condemnation, justification, etc... all legal terms. Therefore he is speaking of spiritual death in this chapter, not physical.

The opposite is true in 1 Corinthians 15, here when Paul speaks of death he speaks of the body, the flesh, falling asleep, being raised up, corruptible, incorruptible, being sown, etc... Here Paul is clearly speaking of physical death, and our constitution.

So, Paul is not saying our body was altered in Romans 5:19 when he says we were "made sinners", he is not saying our nature was altered so that we are compelled to sin, he is saying that sin was imputed to us.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This is what it means to be "made a sinner". To those who sin as Adam did, they are judged or "made sinners" and the sentence of death is passed on them.

Likewise, those who believe on Jesus, as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead are imputed or "made righteous".

This is describing our legal standing before God, not our physical or metaphysical constitution.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 5:19 is written in a form that each half of this verse is both a parallel and an opposite. You cannot teach that sin was imputed to men unconditionally but that righteousness is imputed conditionally. This is an inconsistent interpretation and violates the form of argument Paul is using.

There are only two consistent interpretations possible.

If sin is unconditionally imputed to all men because of Adam's one offense, then righteousness is also unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus's obedience. This would lead to universalism and cannot be true.

The only viable option is that sin is imputed to all men when they conditionally sin as Adam sinned, and righteousness is imputed to all men who conditionally believe as Jesus did.

Albert Barnes recognized this;

Romans 5 is simply teaching that Adam and Jesus were both the "first", Adam the first to sin, and Jesus the first to believe unto righteousness, and both therefore were the standard or "legal precedent" for those who followed in their footsteps.

Those who sinned as Adam sinned were imputed or "made sinners" just as he Adam was. Also because of Adam, the same sentence or condemnation to death passed upon all who sinned as he did.

Likewise, those who believe as Jesus believed his Father are imputed or "made righteous", and the free gift of life is passed on them by grace.

The word "made" does not mean our nature was altered, or you would have to believe that Jesus was made a sinner with a sin nature.

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus did not become a sinner, he did not take on a sin nature, but our sin was imputed or placed on his account. This is what is meant by he hath "made him to be sin" for us. His constitution was not altered. There are some people who actually teach that Jesus became a sinner, this is error.

It is also error to believe that because of Adam's sin all men were turned into sinners that are compelled by their nature to sin.

 

Not in the least. Paul's discussion in Romans deals in actualities--legal and physical.

Nope. And, I find it humorous that in referencing Romans 5 you cite Romans 4, but I digress.

The fact is that the verb in Romans 5:19--καθίστημι--is a typical Pauline verb which essentially means "to constitute as." Adam's sin--disobedience--which was intentional, constituted him as a rebel against God, a sinner. Adam's progeny are born in the same state as Adam entered through his own intentional disobedience.

In fact, Romans 5:12 and following says this as well. Adam's sin is the only "sin" recorded until the Law is given. Paul points out a technicality--sin is not counted where there is no Law. Therefore, it is not (technically) possible for those between Adam and Moses to sin...and, the wages of sin being death, they had to die for some sin. Paul takes great pains to point out that it wasn't their own sin--since sin isn't counted where there is no Law. Adam and those after him die precisely because Adam's sin is passed on to his progeny.

Of course you conveniently leave out the parallelisms of the entire passage. There are, in fact, several. But, note the following:

15. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

​

Of course, you wouldn't say that only "many" died. Of course, all die. And, as you well know, Paul can never be accused of being a universalist. So, your premise here is hopelessly flawed because you don't take Paul's argument as a whole and you don't take it in the context of Romans and the New Testament as a whole.

Of course your final sentence above is directly contradicted by 5:19.

What is more, Paul's argument is not a simple argument or a "first" argument. His argument is grammatically complex and, as mentioned before, he does go to great lengths to say how humanity is liable, in some way, for Adam's sin.

Of course, I know you won't have some reformed epiphany, so I'll likely not respond to any response you have to offer. I have many other things to do and I tire--as do many others--of trying to teach you even the most basic understanding of hermeneutics and theology.

The Archangel

 

Nope, Paul is speaking of spiritual death in Romans 5, not physical. All the terms are legal, he speaks of condemnation for sinners, justification for the righteous, the judgment for sinners, the free gift for the righteous, obedience, and disobedience. etc... There is not one single term that deals with physical death in chapter 5.

As if that is an argument. I find THAT humorous. :laugh:

Well, not knowing Greek or Greek grammar, I have no idea if that is correct or not. This word is also defined as:

to set, place, put
to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
to appoint one to administer an office
to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
to conduct or bring to a certain place
to show or exhibit one's self
come forward as

I notice you went WAY down the list to choose the definition "constitute". What a shocker.

The primary definition is "to set or place", "to put", or "to appoint".

Nice try slick.

You should learn to read with comprehension, Paul very specifically tells us these persons DID NOT sin Adam's sin.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

What Paul is actually showing here is that men from Adam to Moses did have a law, and their death proves that. What law was that? It was the law written on the heart Paul had shown in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul here explains that men without law perish without law. Why? Because they are a law to themselves, the law is written on their heart.

This is why men from Adam to Moses in Romans 5:12-14 died, not because of Adam, but because they violated the law written on their heart and conscience.

In addition, Romans 5:12-14 cannot be teaching Original Sin, because it only speaks of men from Adam to Moses. If Paul was teaching Original Sin (he isn't), then it would apply to ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses only. This absolutely refutes that this is teaching Original Sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m30mG3JKzA8

Oh, but I WOULD say that only "many" died. I do not believe babies and little children are sinners, and I do not believe they are spiritually dead. I believe the elder son in Luke 15 was a baby or infant who died before he could sin. His father called him "Son" showing he was not lost, he said, "thou art EVER with me" showing he was never separated by spiritual death from his father, and his father said, "and all that I have is thine" showing that he "inherited" life as the scriptures say.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Note in vs. 32 that only the prodigal son was dead or lost, the elder son never was. Note also the prodigal is "alive again" which refutes men are born dead in Adam's sin as many falsely teach.

Note how the elder son inherited life "all that I have is thine" vs. 31.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

The elder son was NEVER dead, so Romans 5:15 is perfectly correct when it says only MANY be dead because of Adam. Millions, if not billions of children have died before they could ever sin (Rom 9:11). And of course not everyone believes on Jesus, so the gift by grace only abounds to MANY as this verse says. Romans 5:15 also proves this is speaking of spiritual death, not physical, it is comparing eternal death to eternal life.

Isn't it amazing how perfectly consistent the scriptures are when you get rid of false doctrine?? :thumbs:

You are wrong, my view has NO contradictions, you cannot point one out. Show me where I have contradicted myself or the scriptures.

Oh, but it IS showing that Adam was first. Verse 12 directly tells us Adam brought sin into the world, and death by sin. He became the legal precedent for all those who sinned as he did, they were judged or imputed "sinners" as he was, and the sentence of death passed on them.

Likewise, Jesus was the first to believe God to righteousness. Those who trust Jesus to save them as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead are judged or imputed "righteous", and the free gift of eternal life is given to them.

That is what a legal precedent does, it sets in place judgments and punishments, so that persons who commit the same acts afterward are treated equally and fairly. This is what Romans 5:19 is teaching.

You finally got one thing right, I am not going to come over to the Reformed view. There is volumes of scripture that clearly refutes it, I would have to forget half the Bible to believe Reformed theology.

 

Archangel made a GREAT point to you, in that while there was no reckoning by God of personal sins until the giving of the Law of Moses, as you stated, the Lord stills has a charge against us as being guilty transgressors, due to the Sin of adam, and the Fall!

 

Excellent! Thank you AA!

 

Archangel is completely off and he knows it now. If Paul was teaching that Adam's sin caused spiritual death, then it would extend to all men, not just men from Adam to Moses as we are clearly told. Adam's sin DID lead to physical death for all men, as men were prevented access to the tree of life because of Adam.

Busted.

We are also clearly told that these men from Adam to Moses DID NOT commit Adam's sin with him.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Persons from Adam to Moses did not sin Adam's sin. So why did they die? Because they violated the law written on their heart and conscience as Paul showed in Rom 2:12-15.

If Archangel is honest, he will admit that Romans 5:13-14 cannot be teaching Original Sin, because Original Sin would extend from Adam to EVERY MAN, not just Moses.

The problem around here is very few people can actually think.

 

Are you seriously calling my integrity and my intellect into question here???

Seriously?!

The Archangel

 

I am not questioning your honesty, though I would question your interpretation of Romans 5:13-14.

Paul could not possibly be teaching Original Sin here, because the doctrine of Original Sin extends to ALL MEN, not just men from Adam to Moses.

So it is impossible that that is what Paul is teaching in these verses.

Besides that, Paul tells us directly that men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam. This refutes Original Sin that teaches all men actually committed the same exact sin WITH Adam in the garden, being in his loins.

Rom 5:14 refutes that.

In addition Paul says in Romans 9:11 that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb. This also refutes that they sinned in the garden in Adam's loins.

Isn't this so?

Please answer this question.

 

Do not pay attention to his rambling .....
Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

 

Thanks for calling me a young man, but I have children who are approaching 40 years of age. I have been a Christian for 50 years, how about you?

And it is easy to see why you want Archangel to ignore me, because you too realize my arguments are solid. You cannot answer them.

 

Total depravity came to us from the Gnostics to Augustine to Calvin ... who passed this heresy on to afflict far too many people.