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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Jun 29, 2014.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    A few here on the BB participate in the debating, however, there are probably dozens if not hundreds of seekers, just listening in trying to decide just what it is they should follow concerning these doctrines being discussed. As I have said in the past, one must study to show thyself approved (2Tim2:15, Acts17:11) ,and one must earnestly pray the Holy Spirit give understanding (1Jo2:27). God also gives us teachers, but we must try the teachers also, for they are human and not the Holy Spirit, they can make many errors.

    With todays technology with the internet, we have a wealth of information to pour over, both sides being represented thoroughly. One of the many controversies between the Cal and non-Cal is "freewill". The Cal says it does not exist in the bible. Is this fact or is this exercising "freewill" to ignore text or interpret text so that it makes TULIP's problem of "freewill" go away?

    Try to follow a KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) rule. God did not intend for us to be baffled nor for His truths to be complex that it takes a Greek and Hebrew degree in order to understand scripture. Don't get me wrong, Greek and Hebrew does help in developing clearer meanings, a simple lexicon for these will do. I am not against many of the bible translations, but I do prefer the KJV because it stays as true as it possibly can to a word for word translating format. I hear the ESV has done this as well, but I have not read it. Many of the modern "translations" are more like "interpretations". I actually use them more as commentaries, but I digress...

    Here is a portion from a website concerning "freewill". As I said you can find many, but we can start here, does the bible teach "freewill" or is the TULIP theology right and it does not exist? Remember, God knows just how simple man is, in fact, it is the "wise" whom God says are much harder to teach understanding, so remember to KISS the scriptures. You will have to do some study and some prayer, but don't cause or allow the scriptures to get all muddled or be flip flopping around. You must allow the Scripture to interpret the Scripture, study and pray. Use a good bible with cross referencing marginal notes, many good devoted men have done much work in order to make study easier for us today.

     
    #1 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  2. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    The underlined portion (above) simply is not true.

    We deny a libertarian free will, yes, but not freewill itself.

    After all, a fish is only free in his natural habitat of the water. He may wish to journey outside of that habitat but has no facility to do so. Is the fish free? Yes, but he is not free of his nature that requires him--for purposes of self preservation, essentially--to stay in the water.

    The Archangel
     
    #2 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    What a bunch of baloney, nobody is free according to this criteria, we cannot breathe underwater or in outer space.

    What we are discussing is whether sinners have the option and ability to believe the gospel, and the scriptures absolutely show we do.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Romans 6:16-18 absolutely refutes the false doctrine of Total Inability taught by Calvinists.

    In verse 16 Paul shows that we do not sin because we are slaves to sin, but that we are slaves to sin because we choose to sin.

    This is obvious in reality, nobody is born addicted to cigarettes or alcohol, but men become addicted when they freely choose to smoke or drink and continue in them. It is THEN that they become addicted or slaves to sin.

    But even an addict can quit, and Paul shows that in vs. 16, he says we are servants to whom we "yield" (ability) ourselves, "whether" (option) of sin unto death, "or" (option) of obedience unto righteousness.

    So scripture itself shows we have the option and ability to either choose sin or obedience.

    This is PROVED in vs. 17 where Paul shows these Romans who "were" servants of sin obeyed the doctrine (the gospel) delivered them.

    So sinners can indeed believe the gospel as shown directly in scripture.

    And vs. 18 reinforces this, Paul said that AFTER these Romans who were servants to sin obeyed the gospel, "Being then" set free from sin, they "became" the servants of righteousness.

    Don't fall for all the double-talk folks, the scriptures clearly and simply show that sinners who are servants to sin can obey the gospel, and when they do, "then" they are freed from sin and become servants of righteousness.

    Total Inability is utterly false doctrine easily refuted by scripture.
     
    #3 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
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  4. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    ...demonstrating yet again that you simply cannot read...

    The Archangel
     
    #4 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That's it? That's your argument? That's your refutation? :laugh:

    Total Inability is total garbage. Romans 6:16-18 absolutely refutes it, and is so simple a child could understand it. Paul clearly says we are servants to whom we "yield" ourselves, "whether" of sin unto death, "or" obedience unto righteousness.

    Total Inability is utterly destroyed right there.

    Verse 17 and 18 simply reinforce this, Paul says these Romans who were servants of sin "obeyed" the doctrine delivered them (the gospel).

    Being "then" (after believing the gospel) made free from sin, they "became" the servants of righteousness.

    This scripture is simple and very straightforward, and absolutely destroys the false doctrine of Total Inability.

    Let those who read judge for themselves. :thumbsup:
     
    #5 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Oh, and your car salesman remark was supposed to be a landmark of tight reasoning? You actually specialize in sophistry.
    Dream on winman.

    In Romans 6:22 it says :"but now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God..."

    Do you think that people of their own power of "free-will" set themselves free? Or will you humbly acknowledge that God sets one free?
     
    #6 Rippon, Jun 29, 2014
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It is ALL of God whom sets one free. This is not the issue at hand. It is whether or not one can freely choose to call upon God for that freeing to be done.
     
    #7 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It is the issue at hand, however. In the non-Calvinist schema, you have to have some type of prevenient grace (as articulated in a Wesleyan system) which affects everyone, removing the effect of original sin. Or, you have to have the Calvinist schema in which regeneration of an individual precedes and is the cause of the elect responding to Christ.

    In either case, you have a situation where God sets one free and in either case, you have a situation where no one can "freely" (as in a libertarian free will) call on God without His first having acted.

    The Archangel
     
    #8 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It isn't a refutation at all... It simply is the case that I gave an analogy of a fish in water by saying:

    To which you replied:

    The analogy was about fish in water, not man in water or outer space. I said you couldn't read because of the non-sequitur response you gave, misapplying my analogy and going on some meandering tangent.

    The Archangel
     
    #9 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The freedom to choose is given by God. Does not God have the Sovereign Right to give men a choice?

    Yes, God has made the way and has set the requirements. God draws men to believe, God has given unto men the right to choose.
     
    #10 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And, specifically, where in the text of scripture do you find this? I'm not asking this to be difficult. I want to look at your understanding in the light of the text.

    The Archangel
     
    #11 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Choice begins in the garden of Eden, Genesis chapter 2.....

    "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
     
    #12 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  13. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    That's a good start! But, I'll note the reference you cite is before the Fall. What might some other texts be? And, what happens to mankind as a result of the Fall?

    The Archangel
     
    #13 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Mankind becomes condemned to hell, from conception. Sin nature passes to all mankind.
     
    #14 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Must get to bed, see ya tomorrow.
     
    #15 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  16. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    So, from conception we are condemned and that is the effect of the Fall? Am I understanding you correctly?

    Sleep well!

    The Archangel
     
    #16 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Yes,

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...........For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners............." (Ro5)
     
    #17 steaver, Jun 30, 2014
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    steaver

    Keep in mind Steaver....that you are also human,and maybe not a teacher so it is possible that you can make even more errors:thumbsup:


    you have made this philosophy an idol.

    God has given His truth to us in a form that can reveal and conceal truth.
    I do not read this idea you suggest...but I read where we are to search the scriptures daily.


    While these helps are to be used....they cannot replace teachers who know the gk.language, grammar and tenses of the language. You cannot just brush that off.

    because make choices does not mean the will is free.
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Jun 30, 2014
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    A completely bogus illustration. Free will has nothing to do with it. Fish cannot breathe outside of water. It's a fact of life.
     
    #19 InTheLight, Jun 30, 2014
  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Not "bogus" at all. A fish, because of it's nature, must be in water. That a fish cannot breathe out of water further illustrates the restrictions its own nature places on the fish.

    So, the fish is not free to choose against its nature. The fish has "free will" only so long as it is in the water and, confined to that medium, it is following its nature.

    Furthermore, the fish in the medium of water is free to school with other fish, to hunt other fish, etc. The fish, due to its nature and its natural restrictions, is not free to join a gaggle of geese, a pride of lions, or the local chapter of the ACLU.

    The Archangel
     
    #20 The Archangel, Jun 30, 2014
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