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Van, listen. I'M. NOT. NITPICKING! I'm asking a sincere question so that I may fully comprehend what you have said. I don't want to leap to assumptions. I'm trying to understand from your statement who or what is doing the begging.

IT WAS A SIMPLE REQUEST FOR CLARIFICATION. GOODNESS!!!!

 

Paul spoke to babes in Christ as men of flesh, giving them the milk of the gospel. Read the passage from 1 Cor 2:14 to 3:3. The idea is fallen men cannot understand spiritual meat, thus the things of the Spirit, refer to the spiritual meat and not the milk.

I do not define being spiritually dead as being unable to seek God and trust in Christ. The Calvinist redefinition of being spiritually dead as meaning unable to seek God and trust in Christ is a fiction.

The verse does not say no one, it refers to some men so set in their man-made doctrines, they reject the very words of Christ.

Yes, no one comes to Christ unless he or she has been drawn by the lovingkindness of God, as shown by Christ, high and lifted up, dying for us while we were sinners.

What scripture does not say is all people hate God at all times. See Matthew 23:13 where fallen men were actually entering heaven, so they were indeed seeking God to some degree. Total Spiritual Inability is a fiction.

My views are all presented clearly in scripture, as written, using the grammar and syntax and historical range of word meanings, something Calvinism rejects.

Finally, I used the phrase, so simple a cave man could understand it to refer to a very simple and straightforward concept of salvation by grace through faith. And early man, and least some of them did live, at least some of the time in cave dwellings, such as at Mesa Verde National Park in southwest Colorado.

 

If your claims were true, you would have said, oh, thanks for the clarification, 2 Cor. 5:18-21 does indicate God begs the lost through His ambassadors to be reconciled with God.

But instead, I get another blast.

 

No Van. Someone without the Spirit is not a babe in Christ. They are lost and will have nothing to do with Christ. You are out on a broken theological limb.

No one means no one but those the Father gives to Jesus. The Father draws them and then they will, without fail come to Jesus. These are certain people that were chosen before the foundation of the world i.e. the elect.

Pat yourself on the back. You apparently think you know more than Warfield, Pink, Packer, Boice, Boyce, Gill, Owen, Bunyan and a host of other Calvinists in Church History. You could never learn from them --you would be their teacher. They knew so little of the Word of God compared with your knowledge of Scripture.

 

No, Van. I'm absolutely exasperated with the way you answer questions. I asked you who or what is begging. And instead of a simple answer, I get "are you saying you have never read 2 Corinthians 5:18-21".

So I'll ask again...with feeling...because I'm TRYING to understand (not argue) your statement, sir. As I read your sentence, it was not clear to me whether you are saying thar God is begging or if scripture is begging. This isn't about you, sir. I'm trying to understand your statement. Please help me to understand. A simple answer will suffice. Please.

 

Your post above qualifies as a "blast" in Van's mind. It defies the imagination.

 

Rippon, I'm just trying to make sure I'm getting where he is coming from. I'm not going to make assumptions on what Van has to say. I need clarification. I need some help with the bread crumbs. The advantage we have is a forum is that we can ask "I'm sorry. I don't quite understand what you said. May I have a clarification?" I seek simple clarification. But I asked a question and got a question for an answer. Hence, me getting a bit exasperated.

 

You could compliment him and you've blasted him...

 

The scope of the question is too myopic.

Genesis 6 gives us the condition of the heart of Mankind:

[5] The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5 ESV) ​

But, we know this is not the case before the Fall, for God referred to the creation as "Very good." Something has fundamentally changed in Man. And, by the way, the flood doesn't fix this. Genesis 8 states:

[21] And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. (Genesis 8:21 ESV) ​

Man's heart is still fundamentally evil--after the flood. So, in the Fall, somewhere, we know that Adam goes from a state of perfection to a state of sinfulness.

The nature of Adam's sin is rebellion. The command was given and Adam willfully broke it. The ultimate aftermath of Adam's rebellion was separation from God. Just because Adam is separated from God (and Cain, too, as the question was raised) doesn't mean that God can't speak to them. Clearly, He does. But, that isn't the real issue, is it.

No, the real issue is can Man respond positively to God--on God's own terms--without God's intervention? Clearly the answer throughout all the pages of Scripture is "no."

Man will try to respond to "God," but will do so on his own terms--which is no response at all. There has to be radical, divine intervention, and this is one reason why we refer to "Conversion."

The Archangel

 

Or worse yet, mankind will worship idols. How TWISTED that is!

 

Yes...very twisted. Every idol, false god, or non-biblical understanding of the One, True, and Living God is essentially a projection of one's self upon an idea that takes on the form of a "deity" of sorts.

We see this in the horribly misguided people who say things like, "My God would never send anyone to hell..." Your god may not do things like that, but it's because you'd never do anything like that if you were god. Of course, the One, True, and Living God--the God of the Bible--can and does send people to hell. Your "god" is nothing more than a projection of yourself.

We need some serious divine intervention by God Himself, through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, to convert us.

The Archangel

 

Well done...good answer & explanation :thumbsup:

 

Projection of yourself....think that will sink it?:laugh:

 

What on God's green earth makes you think that Noah's condition was his own doing? Do you not understand the Hebrew idiom "found favor in the eyes of the LORD?" Do you not see that Noah, according to Genesis 8 has a heart that desires only evil continually?

It really is as plain as the nose on your face--if you're willing to roll up your sleeves and exegete the text properly.

The question, though, is why was Abel's sacrifice accepted? Why assume that Able is--on his own--able to please God?

So.... what you're essentially saying is that no "discussion" or "debate" is going to happen from your end. Though I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, I figured this would be you're approach. How disappointing it is to be proven right. It is highly ironic that saying "if one is to give TULIP an honest examination" you are not open to that examination. Instead, you charge off with your own blinders on seeing the text only at surface level, failing to see the richness of an expository, biblical theology.

As far as conversion goes... If it isn't taught anywhere, explain to me, then, the person of Judah.

The Archangel

 

At least the lines are clearly drawn in as far as you among others are concerned. You want a fight (your word) you'll get it.

 

This reeks of forseen faith election. Do you hold to that? Noah found grace based solely on nothing less than God's electing love.

You need to study TULIP some more....

 

Or more specifically the Canons of Dort.