Featured Preterism...A Pox Upon Baptists & other denoms

Excellent point!

It should also strike them as strange that the song of Moses is being sung in heaven in the 15th chapter of Revelation. This is very significant. The song of Moses had only one purpose and time, and that was to 'testify before Israel as a witness against them' when they had utterly corrupted themselves and evil had befallen them in the 'latter days':

16 And Jehovah said unto Moses.....this people will rise up, and play the harlot ...and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day.....and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought.....
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you...... that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
21....when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness.....
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

It is also significant that the Song of Moses is quoted by Christ and the writers of the NT in reference to 'that generation' of Jews. This is compelling internal evidence that not only is much the book of Revelation concerned with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but that it was written prior to this event

 

Anything built upon Irenaeus for a late date of Revelation is flawed. Period. All you've presented here is the 'domino effect' of bad information passed down through the centuries.

 

That is an assumption on your part. It is like accusing each one of them of plagiarism and we know that is not true. Each was a scholar in his own right and worked individually at different times, not necessarily contemporary with one another. It is doubtful that they used the same sources.

Also you are working from a flawed and biased premise yourself. "Anything built ...for a late-date of Revelation is flawed. Period.
Are you going to die for that "conviction"?
You could be wrong and probably are.

 

Brother Tom, you are in my prayers, you and Rippon both, you all be careful, and I pray that this over reaction is temporary also.

 

Bit they did use the same source, Ireneaus' statement is the main basis for the late date advocates. Read their material, it was in MacArthur's work you quoted.

When I first heard of preterism more than a decade ago, I assumed the same thing. To me the burden of proof was on the early date advocates. What I discovered was shocking to me and that is how little evidence there really was for the late date. It pretty much boiled down to the highly questionable statement of Ireneaus.

 

So far you’ve wrongly accused me of racism, anti-Semitism, posting offensive trash, and wrongly issued to me an infraction for ‘Insulted Other Member(s)’, all the while with a blatant disregard to the gross insult to many a godly Baptist contained within the subject title of this thread alone, “Preterism...A Pox Upon Baptists”. So what are you accusing me of now?

For all the good it’s going to do, I’m telling you as plainly as I know how; in no way have I accused anyone of plagiarism.

And I reiterate, if their source was Ireneaus, it’s bad information that’s been unwittingly passed down through the centuries, and in no way do I believe it was it plagiarism on their part.

 

Thank you so much, Ky.

Whenever my wife and I have trials here in China we also remind ourselves that God is in control.

 

The same happened with me. I assumed that Preterists were adopting the earlier date out of mere necessity. But when I looked into it I was astonished how easily the late-date case collapsed, and how strong the early-date case became, both from the paucity of witnesses to the contrary and from the internal, surer witness of Scripture itself.

 

Ky, I thank you for your prayers too. Despite setbacks, China has its share of receptive folks. I am on foreign soil, but presently America is a scary place.

 

All those troublesome concerns are ...troublesome. The absurd charges made against you remind me of how the Democrats, led by Obama ,accuse the Tea Party of various nefarious things.

 

Ditto. It is astonishing how it has changed in the last few years. Just speaking of the airports, I have had three unnerving um "close encounters" at the US airports. Never had problems here in China (or Korea or Japan).

I think the religious restrictions here are not going to be as long-lasting as some think. Even many officials make a distinction between peaceful Christians and the knife-wielding extremists from the fringes of China.

Opportunites are here. The biggest obstacle here in China - not that you don't know this, Rippon - is not governement opposition as the ordinary Chinese's apathy. They are so star-struck by the bling of consumerism. It's incredible.

 

I'm curious, what's your approach as an American familiar with this 'bling of consumerism', to redirect them or get them to think on a level beyond the material?

I'm probably stereotyping them on a par along the lines with Americans coming out of the Great Depression who were eager to finally 'have something'. Am I wrong in this assessment?

 

Tom, when you say "presently America is a scary place", what do you mean exactly? I'd like your unique perspective.

 

The blatant stifling of free speech demonstrated right here on this thread alone should cause alarm, but DHK is a Canadian, I suppose he doesn't place the same value on that right as Americans do, or should.

 

Not Tom, Rippon.

 

Sorry. I got confused there. Rippon.

 

Although I didn't say those exact words I pretty much agree. And on several counts. Partly, I am just remembering how America used to be just, say, twenty years ago. I'm sure part of this is just my perception. We are all a lot more aware now, thanks to the Internet, of how nefarious all governments can be.

But what forces me to my conclusions is interaction with my students here and just plain personal experiences.

Very few Chinese view America as a desirable country to visit. This was a surprise to me. I assigned a writing topic for my students: What is your favorite country? Why?
Here was the partial breakdown in popularity (I quit counting after a while):
China 136 students (no surprise here)
France 29
Australia 20
South Korea 14
Japan, UK 6
Italy 5
Germany, US 4
etc.

I know that by the end US had 6 "favoriters" - out of about 350 students! The main reason they were against the US was violence. They didn't feel safe there. France was chosen because it was "romantic", Australia "clean air", "animals", South Korea "K-Pop" (music) and "food".

Personal experiences:
There is nothing here anywhere near as personally invasive as the TSA. And the cops here look more like CHIPS or Car 54 (remeber them?) than SWAT. They are much less intrusive.

Safety on the streets. My wife can walk around here by herself - at night - and feel perfectly safe. The same could not be said when we lived in the States - even Wichita. The biggest danger here is being run over by a vehicle. Many cars - even police and busses - don't bother using turn signals or, sometimes, even lights at night.

Maybe the biggest reason I don't feel safe is our policy toward the world, notably our regime fiddling in Ukraine, enabling corrupt oligarchs to retain power and bully in the mere name of democracy.

It is disheartening how many Americans get their views only from sources like MSNBC, Fox News, Drudge, NY Times, etc. - not realising that these all give only minor variations of the same tune. I do read Drudge, but I balance it out with RT.com, The Guardian, and Consortium News.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. I didn't write half of what I wanted to write, but this is off-topic to this thread.

 

Another good question. I try very hard to redirect my students but it is difficult. The world of glitzy and attractive brand choices is still a new thing to them. When I open my laptop - already a few years old - they often Ooh and Ah, asking how much it cost. A student took me to an expensive tea house and then showed me pictures of his girlfriend and the ring he bought for her. More of the ring than of the girlfriend! telling me how much it cost and how unique that particular diamond cut is.

Your second paragraph seems correct, except it was the parents who were in the "depression", and the next generation - a single, overly-indulged child - are the eager consumers. And this consumerism is ruining the country in several ways. Several formerly natural or historical sites are gaudily Disneyfied into Vanity Fairs for photo-ops and selfies, as well as astonishingly tacky merchandising.

The Chinese, as a whole, seem to have less true spiritual interest than Americans, And that is saying a lot. To paraphrase Wordsworth, "The world is too much with them".

But I have met some here who, while not really understanding Christianity, are certainly more noble-minded, even some younger students. Their foundation is often their Chinese heritage, Confucianism, orplain family upbringing. But they are less swayed by the latest trends and fads than the majority. And I also know some Christians here, of various stripes.

 

So there's no lingering elements of the 'metaphysical aspects' of Taoism or Buddhism that may attract them or cause them to relate to the spirituality of Christianity? If so, that kinda sorta surprises me. Was Mao that successful in totally eliminating/squashing any belief/knowledge beyond the material realm?

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Don't place yourself in a bad position by answering those questions, I will understand, it's not that important.

 

Whew, lots of them here too.