Featured Defining Terms (please read the first post)

Hi JeremyV, perhaps you could explain that the come to Me in John 6:37 means arrive into Me, and in the Greek is presented with different words than the "come to Me" found in several other verses such as John 6:35.

The claim that the context requires that John 6:37 is referring to change of mind is without merit. Jesus says he will not cast out, and thus positional sanctification is in view contextually.

But lets be clear, God reveals the gospel through the words and writings of the Apostles and born anew believers. If a person understands and learns, then the Father will credit their faith as righteousness, and give them to Christ. All that the Father gives to me will arrive in Me and those that travel to Me (are transferred by God into Me) I shall in no wise cast out.

Both meanings of "come to Me" are found in scripture but Calvinism sees just one.

 

Sorry brother, this exercise just ain't going to work :tear:

As I said before, definitions of words is not the contention between brethren, it is the interpretations and applications according to context which is at odds. Many are guilty of targeting favorite proof text while blowing off other text which cast much doubt on their points of view. This is why I take the position that both election and freewill choice are taught in the Scriptures, it is up to the student to allow the two to harmonize with each other. The only way I have found to accomplish this is to understand that God has complete knowledge of all events from before the foundation of the world, He cannot learn anything. God calls Jesus Christ His Elect, God knew Jesus would not fail, all those who choose to believe and follow Jesus are placed in Christ as elect of God. Of course, God already knows who these will be.

 

Except tht you also must factor into that all sinners are spiritually dead, so unless/until God Himselfs acts to save them...

And also, God knows us in an individual manner, calls to salvation us by name, so not just "knowing things beforehand"

As ONLY God has full and reral Free Will in ultimate sense, as he can override the wills of all created beings if He choose too at any time!

 

Go back to post #49

 

Could you please explain what that means? Begin with Adam, show from the scripture how Adam was unable to hear God and respond to God after he sinned and spiritually died. And then you can go to Cain, and explain how he was not able to respond to God.

 

No, we should list all the verses that have the phrase "come to Me" and then agree they mean "trust in Me" or "travel to Me" or "arrive in Me."

Calvinists misuse the term "context." To them, when you look at scripture through the prism of Calvinism, you are looking at it "in context." If you look at scripture logically, using the grammar and historical range of word meanings, why you are taking it out of context, i.e. Calvinist context.

 

In Matthew 3:14, John the Baptist says to Jesus, yet you come to me (John.) Clearly travel to me is the meaning.

In Matthew 11:28, Jesus says "Come to Me" all who are heavy laden. This is ambiguous, Jesus could be saying trust in Me and I will give you rest, or travel to me (spiritually) and I will give you rest.

In Mark 10:14, Jesus says "let the little children come to Me" again clearly meaning let them "travel to Me."

In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth says "should come to me" again meaning travel to me.

In Luke 18:16 Jesus says let the little children come to me, meaning to travel to Him.

In 1 Corinthians 16:11, Paul says "let him come to me" again meaning to travel to him.

In 2 Timothy 4:9, again Paul wants someone to come to me, meaning to travel to him.

Finally, in Titus 3:12, Paul again asks someone to come to me, meaning to travel to him.

Translations vary but the above provides a good sampling of the verses (outside of John) translated with "come to me." All indicate a change in location is in view, with Matthew 11:28 being ambiguous, and allowing for the possibility that a change in mental viewpoint is in view. But such an interpretation is unnecessary in light of the actual word mean of G2064.

 

Turning now to the gospel of John, we find five verses where "come to Me" appears, John 5:40, 6:36 (two cases) 6:44, 6:65, and 7:37.

In John 5:40 we see individuals are unwilling to come to Me (Jesus). First they do not believe the witness of the Father, they do not have the Father's word abiding in them, verse 37, and the reason is that they do not believe Jesus. Second they think eternal life can be acquired through the search or study of scripture, but scripture actually teaches eternal life comes from Jesus, the Messiah, the Redeemer. And third, they do not have the love of the God in their hearts.

Bottom line, contextually, they are unwilling to travel toward Jesus because they do not believe the Father's witness, nor do they love God.
As stated elsewhere in scripture, you must believe in the One sending Jesus, before you can believe in Jesus.

By the numbers,

1)they do not believe so they are unwilling,
2) they are unwilling so they cannot travel toward Jesus
3) God must accept an individual's faith, rejected in this passage, in order to arrive in Jesus spiritually.​

 

Turning now to the gospel of John, we find five verses where "come to Me" appears, John 5:40, 6:37 (two cases) 6:44, 6:65, and 7:37.

In John 5:40 we see individuals are unwilling to come to Me (Jesus). First they do not believe the witness of the Father, they do not have the Father's word abiding in them, verse 37, and the reason is that they do not believe Jesus. Second they think eternal life can be acquired through the search or study of scripture, but scripture actually teaches eternal life comes from Jesus, the Messiah, the Redeemer. And third, they do not have the love of the God in their hearts.

Bottom line, contextually, they are unwilling to travel toward Jesus because they do not believe the Father's witness, nor do they love God.
As stated elsewhere in scripture, you must believe in the One sending Jesus, before you can believe in Jesus.
By the numbers,

1)they do not believe so they are unwilling,
2) they are unwilling so they cannot travel toward Jesus
3) God must accept an individual's faith, rejected in this passage, in order to arrive in Jesus spiritually.​

Reposted to correct a typo.

 

ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME

Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13.
An alternate view, which I think mistaken, is to view draw as meaning to be compelled irresistibly. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.

 

I am new here and confess I have not read every post in this thread. I see this one though and would like to jump in because this is indeed a misrepresentation of the Reformed position.

Perhaps a closer look at The Ordo Salutis, which is the order of salvation, as Calvinists see it in Scripture. One should refer to the Scriptures for each step to see how they are applied.

Please note how it is all of God. He is sovereign in our salvation.
I will give just a few verses, but there are many more.
This is laid down in *steps* as it were, so we can better see the mechanics behind it.

We are elect by God before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)
Our sins are atoned for on the cross by Jesus Christ at the time of His crucifixion. (1Peter 2:24)
We are called by God in His time. (1 Cor 1:9 ; Matt 22:14 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ; Heb 9:15 )
We are regenerated by God. (Eph 2:4,5 ; 1Peter 1:3 ; Col 2:13, John 3:3, 5)
At our conversion, we put our faith in Christ and repent of our sin. ( 2Tim 2:25 ; Acts 20:21 )
We are justified by God. ( Romans 4:25 ; Romans 5:1,2 ; Titus 3:5-8 )
We are sanctified at that moment but continue the process of sanctification as we grow in grace and mature as Christians. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ; 1 Peter 1:1,2 ; John 17:17 )
We are glorified when we either die or Christ returns. (Romans 8:30 ; 1 Cor 15 )

 

:jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:

 

Do you hold to us being eternally regenerated by God, or that we are regenerated and can be a considerable lenght of time before getting 'that regeneration/conversion seems to happen all about same time by our way of seeing it?

 

This order of salvation misrepresents the Biblical Order.

1) All those "in Christ" were elect before the foundation of the world. However, scripture is unclear as to whether that election was corporate, we were chosen at the target group of God's redemption plan, or we were chosen as foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith.

2) The phrase "bore our sins in His body" is ambiguous, if He bore the sin of the world, that would include not only our sins, but the sins of the world.
What Calvinism claims is that He died for the specific sins of specific foreseen individuals, the supposed elect foreseen individuals chosen before the foundation of the world. But no such grand assumption is warranted or supported by the text (1 Peter 2:24).

3) No scripture refers to an outer call and an inner call. That view is pure fiction. And note the actual order presented in Matthew 22:14, first we are invited (called by the gospel) and then chosen. Not, chosen as foreseen individuals, then called. So the actual order is we are called out of darkness by the gospel, then we are saved, and then we are given a holy calling, our ministry within the body of Christ.

4) When God credits our faith in Christ, God sets us apart in Christ. In Christ we are made alive, regenerated, and born anew, together with Christ. Ephesians 2:5. Again the fiction that we are regenerated before God puts us in Christ is a misrepresentation of scripture.

5) When we respond to the call of the gospel, turning from our self directed life to a God directed life, trusting in Christ wholeheartedly, God may credit our faith as righteousness, or not. If He does, then God puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are born anew, converted, regenerated, made alive. We are not converted with irresistible grace, then become believers, we respond to the gospel and become believers, and then if God credits our faith as righteousness, we are placed in Christ and converted. Again, Calvinism misrepresents the order of salvation.

6) When we are put in Christ, we are baptized into Christ and undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (sin burden) is removed and thus we are justified. When we are set apart in Christ we are positionally sanctified.

7) After we are in Christ, we undergo progressive sanctification where we strive to become more Christ like and strive to serve Christ.

8) When we are born anew spiritually, we are glorified spiritually, raised up in Christ. And we will be physically glorified when we are clothed with our glorified body at Christ's second coming.

 

Amen! :thumbsup: Good job rightly dividing the word of Truth. :applause:

 

He divided in alright....it's called ripping it outta context...:thumbs:

 

And those steps all stem from the underlying philosophy that unless a man is obedient to God, he will not go to heaven. This is shared by both Calvinists and Arminians. If you start at the beginning of this thread, you'll notice I made a challenge about scrutinizing a man under both systems, and that both camps agree on the eternal destiny of every man, bar none.

Thus far, I have received no challenges to my assertion.

I think you should start at the beginning of this thread