Featured Defining Terms (please read the first post)

We are called before the foundation of the world, but it is at the moment that God regenerates us that regeneration/conversion/justification occurs and that appears to be instantaneous.

 

Have to get used to this quoting system.

 

Clearly we disagree, Steavor.
Which means you disagree with a host of truly worthy spiritual giants throughout church history.

And...for the record, I am a *she*.

:flower:

 

I think you are confused. Convicted1 was agreeing with you. Steaver was agreeing with the one who contradicted you.

 

I see the other was quoted.
Thank you.

 

No worries. It happens. It does take some getting used to if you aren't familiar with it.

 

These topics are often misunderstood so that is nothing new. Having exchanges in just text also makes it difficult...so no worries at all. It is hard when one pops into the middle of things, but I thought I would just jump in feet first.

I prefer to wear the label, Reformed....although I will use them interchangeably. There are nuances that people need to discuss to really understand where others are coming from, the labels at least give us a start.

I think this is the correct order, obviously, but I know I could have chosen far more verses in support. I put this together myself and know I should go back and fine tune the verses. If you say you are not a Calvinist, then that is why this order seems off to you...this is the traditional Ordo Salutis that those who are truly Reformed would embrace. I would love to see what you consider to be the correct order if you get some time.

 

Not to those who are Reformed.

I believe He chose us individually, but of course we corporately make up the elect. God knew us as individuals when we were being knit together in our mother's wombs, He knew Jacob and Esau before they were born, He called us individually before the foundation of the world.

Christs blood was sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world, as in every individual who has ever lived...but it was efficacious only to those He called.
Ephesians 1:3-14 We would also have to get into the *all* and *whole world* arguments to flesh this out further, which I am sure you have done on this board already and is better kept for another post.

There is the general gospel call and the effective call of the gospel. The general call is what we must do as in the great commission...go forth and preach the gospel to everyone, although we know not everyone who hears it will be saved. The general gospel call can be rejected. The effective call of the gospel is what Romans 8:30 is talking about. This call is irresistible and is a done deal, as it were...called, justified, glorified.

We are dead in our sins and trespasses, every inclination of our hearts is evil all of the time. God regenerates us so we can put our faith in Christ. A dead man cannot put his faith anywhere, he must be quickened first.

The order of salvation is the least of your issues, you do not understand the mechanics of salvation. God may credit our faith as righteousness or not? We only have faith because it is a gift from God! HE gives it to us. Eph 2:8

Regeneration, conversion, justification and initial sanctification happens at what we perceive as the same time, they flow from one to the other immediately.

Amen. We are sanctified, meaning set apart and we continue to be sanctified as we mature in Christ, the renewing of our minds and as we are more conformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ ...this goes on until we die or are glorified.

Again, Romans 8:30 has our glorification as a sure thing.

 

Ahem....I am not Steaver...


BTW, again, welcome to BB. Your solid posts will bring a breath of fresh air to this place....

 

I think "solid" is a synonym for "that which agrees with my view"

Even when I use the word, it means that. When was the last time any of us called a post "solid" only to disagree with it?

Just my two sense (or lack of cents) - lol

But still a solid post, Willis

 

Yes, I am sorry about that. I misquoted, but went back and put his name in there to try to sort out my mess, since he was the one that disagreed with me.

Thank you so much. I had just recently begun participating in another forum, but it was such a mixed bag of theology that it was rather frustrating. Unitarians, Mid Acts Dispensationalists, Open Theists, Agnostics, Atheists, you name it....dealing with Semi Pelagians vs Calvinism is a cakewalk compared to all that! lol

 

lol well I appreciated my posts being called solid =)

 

Yes, it's always appreciated when that happens. And welcome to the board.

BTW, I used to be on a different board, too. One that had the mixed bag you described. It's a good way to delve into apologetics, for sure.

 

Thank you.

Yes it can be. When you think about how we differ on this board in words and semantics when we have so much more in common...the case over there is unreal.

 

Unreal, yes. Mind boggling even. I had plenty of run-ins with JWs, SDAs, Christadelphians, hyper-dispensationalists, universalists, Mormons, atheists...you're right. There is so much common ground here

 

The order does not change, scripture is clear. My view is consistent with all scripture, your reverses the order in multiple places.

Here is an example where you say all the right things, yet mean all the wrong things.

1) Did God choose us individually? Yes.
2) When did God choose us individually? When He credited our faith as righteousness and placed us spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
3) Yes, God knew us as individuals, and He had a plan for our life when we were being knit together in our mother's womb.
4) No verse says or suggests God called us before the foundation of the world. Thus to be called, then chosen means we had to be called by the gospel before we were chosen. ​

Close, but not cigar. Only those God puts spiritually in Christ are washed with His blood, the circumcision of Christ. As yourself this, how could we be by nature children of wrath, if when we were conceived after Christ died on the cross, our sins had been removed?

Romans 8:30 says ... those He predestined [corporately before the foundation of the world] He also called [during their lifetime when they heard and understood the gospel] and those He called [crediting their faith as righteousness He set them apart in Christ] where they were justified [the circumcision of Christ] and glorified [spiritually].

Well this is probably true of one of us.

But they occur after God puts us spiritually in Christ.

 

So you would hold that while logically a sinner gets regenerated first, faith in jesus, saved/sealed with the Holy Spirit, to us all of that seems to happen at same time, correct?

 

How can that order be as you lay out here though?

As beiung sinner asand found in Adam, the Lord Himself would have to grant us a new heart/mind to be even able to respond by faith to jesus, correct?

 

Yes indeed.