Featured Defining Terms (please read the first post)

Scripture is clear, but you seem to be confused.
It is fine if you do not agree with my position, but you are implying that I have changed the order, when in fact I believe it is you that has.
This position is also upheld by theologians such as Ulrich Zwingli, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, Abraham Kuyper, Wayne Grudem, Cornelius Van Til, James White, RC Sproul, J. I. Packer, Alister McGrath, John Piper, Michael Horton, DA Carson and more.
Just saying, you might be wrong.

First of all, you are looking at this verse eisegetically rather than exegetically. This is a wonderful verse but it in no way tells us WHEN we were chosen individually, except to point us to Ephesians 1:4 where it explicitly tells us WHEN we became firstfruits, "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world".

This is what my original post was on this thread:

We are elect by God before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)
Our sins are atoned for on the cross by Jesus Christ at the time of His crucifixion. (1Peter 2:24)
We are called by God in His time. (1 Cor 1:9 ; Matt 22:14 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ; Heb 9:15 )
We are regenerated by God. (Eph 2:4,5 ; 1Peter 1:3 ; Col 2:13, John 3:3, 5)
At our conversion, we put our faith in Christ and repent of our sin. ( 2Tim 2:25 ; Acts 20:21 )
We are justified by God. ( Romans 4:25 ; Romans 5:1,2 ; Titus 3:5-8 )
We are sanctified at that moment but continue the process of sanctification as we grow in grace and mature as Christians. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ; 1 Peter 1:1,2 ; John 17:17 )
We are glorified when we either die or Christ returns. (Romans 8:30 ; 1 Cor 15 )

We were elect/chosen before the foundation of the world and called according to His time...there are verses listed.

Bring this one back to me with some better grammar please. I would like to understand exactly what your issue is with this one before I give a response.

Eisegesis. Look it up.

Indeed. Take it up with any of the works from the men I listed above. The spiritual scholars of the past overwhelmingly embraced the Doctrines of Grace and this order of salvation.

What does your phrase, "puts us spiritually in Christ" exactly mean.
If you are saying that God regenerates us, quickens us, changes us from spiritually dead to the living...and the rest follows, then yes.

 

Not according to David. Calvinist would say David was already regenerated when he called out to God to create in himself a clean heart (regeneration that was to come prophesied)

 

Well, that didn't take long for the "I am more educated than you" to come out.

Quoting scholars really makes no case since both sides can compile such a list.

And we have to define which Doctrines of Grace are being referred to, Calvin's or the Scriptures.

 

David battled sin his whole life. He even had a child w/Bathsheba and had her husband, more or less, murdered. This is why he was crying out to God....

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

That's it Sister!!! Take him to the woodshed....

 

One and the same.

 

You are correct. The term "Doctrines of Grace" has historically been used to describe Calvinism's view of soteriology. Arminians can try to coop the term, but history is their enemy.

 

You are from Pennsylvania....guns and bibles:smilewinkgrin:

 

Setting your charges aside, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Did we have faith before we heard and understood the gospel? Nope! Thus our election for salvation occurred during our lifetime, not before the foundation of the world. If you are chosen through faith, you have faith before you are chosen.

No verse says or suggests God called us before the foundation of the world. Thus to be called, then chosen means we had to be called by the gospel before we were chosen.

No, all those who have been born anew, have been, past tense, glorified. Thus we are glorified before we physically die. If you have been justified, you have been glorified.

 

Oh thank you:thumbsup:

 

Actually, I am not saying that at all. I am saying, I do not understand the question or statement being made, in order for me to respond appropriately I need to have to rephrased. Perhaps it is my own lack of intelligence, but I do not get it.

I have no idea what his credentials are, nor do you have any idea what mine are. I might be a Grade 8 drop out for all you know. We are not here to compare academic achievements, we are here to dialogue about theology and doctrine.

At the risk of sounding like a 12 year old.... Ours are better than yours though. lol Sorry, but tis the truth! We have church history on our side as well.

The Doctrines of Grace as laid out in the Scriptures, which Calvin based his teachings on, of course.

 

Hi 5 Solas, if all you have to offer is to say I am right and you are wrong, and my scholars are more numerous than your scholars, you are not adding much to the discussion.

Calvinism has been shown to contradict scripture after scripture.

Calvinism - we are chosen then called
Scripture - we are called then chosen.

Calvinism - we are chosen then given faith
Scripture - we are chosen through faith ​

 

I think I have brought a little more to the table than that.

You saying that Calvinism is opposing Scripture does not make it true.

Show me...give me JUST Scripture to illustrate what you are saying right here. I have already given Scriptural support but I will put it up here again and I would like to see you give more than one verse as a rebuttal.

Not sure where you stand theologically, I do not know you nor have I seen anything that you have written other than the posts on this particular thread. Using 2 Thess 2:13, does not support your position at all. I know you think it does, but it does not. Even Matthew Henry has a nice bit in his commentary on it. So, because I cannot see where you are even coming from and how you think it supports your position, please give me other verses that do, so we can compare Scripture with Scripture.


You said:

Calvin merely set down a systematic theology of what the Scriptures say, it in no way contradicts it.

Ephesians 1:4-5
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"

Not sure much of anything else could have happened before the foundation of the world. You are saying we were called then chosen. Nowhere do the Scriptures say we were called first, but we see many times we were chosen first.

Romans 8:30
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

I see here that He predestined and then called. First chose then called.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

I see here again, chosen from the beginning.


In order to continue this, I would like to see multiple Scriptures which you believe support the following two positions.

Scripture - we are called then chosen.

Scripture - we are chosen through faith

 

Glorification represents the completion of the redemptive work of Christ. It is not a present state of being, it is a future one. Romans 8:30 speaks of it as a done deal though, in the respect that it is a sure thing, "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Not all His people are yet called or justified...or glorified.

1 Corinthians 15:52
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed"
The glorification of our bodies comes at the end, not in the present.

Romans 8:17
"and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."
Be glorified, looks like it refers to the future here.

Even the concept that if we are glorified now...that means we are walking around, in a glorified state, still sinning. Glorification is the last step, as it were, of our experience....where we will be made perfect and at that time, sin no more.

 

You should jump into the thread on regeneration.

What you call glorified, scripture calls the washing of regeneration. Glorified in Rom 8 is speaking of honor given to Christ because he suffered (Heb 2:9-10). And if we suffer, we will be glorified with Him (Rom 8:17).

 

Yet another person saying scripture does not mean what it says. He has glorified us in some sense, in my view spiritually. To claim the sequence of events as presented in scripture is invalid, is simply yet another example of scripture nullification in order to pour man-made doctrine into the text.

There is no question, we will be glorified in the future, at Christ's second coming, but it is not an either/or question, it is both. Spiritually now, physically then.

 

Calvinism's defense often relies on redefining the meaning of words, here we have predestined which means determined beforehand, as meaning called. I accept scripture as written, using the grammar and historical word meanings, rather than ignoring the grammar and historical word meanings.

You say 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say we are chosen through faith in the truth, a conditional election for salvation, and then you refer to Calvinist commentators who agree with Calvinism. I say that does not cut the mustard.

Again, we have scripture on one side, and Calvinism on the other.

You asked for additional scripture, but you have provided no scripture that says we were chosen for salvation not through faith in the truth. Your argument is an argument from silence, in my opinion. Mine is from scripture.

But I will present a second verse, James 2:5, which says God chose those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those that love Him. So, again we have scripture saying we are conditionally elected during our lifetime, after we have put our faith and devotion in Christ.

 

Hi 5 Solas, you said you do not know where I am coming from theologically. I am a Baptist, and use scripture, and not commentary, as the only authority for faith and practice. My study Bible is the NASB95.
I am not a Calvinist, unless a one point Calvinist counts, i.e. I believe scripture teaches once a person is saved, spiritually placed in Christ, they are saved forever.

I am not an Arminian, I do not believe we were chosen as foreseen individuals with foreseen faith, before the foundation of the world, I believe we were chosen corporately, when God chose His Redeemer. Thus He also chose corporately, those the Redeemer would redeem before the foundation of the world. This is the meaning, in my opinion, of Ephesians 1:4. Several other verses tell us that God chooses individuals for salvation during their lifetime, which makes considering Ephesians 1:4 as a corporate election sound scripturally.

I believe Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine.
I believe Unconditional Individual Election before creation is mistaken doctrine.
I believe Christ died for all men, not just for the supposedly chosen before creation individuals.
I do not believe God chooses us then gives us faith via Irresistible Grace, I believe God credits our faith as righteousness, or not, and if He does, He puts us spiritually in Christ, our positional sanctification.

 

Hi 5 Solas, did you notice 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says chosen "from" the beginning" and does not say chosen "before" the foundation of the world. Thus our individual election occurs since or after creation, whereas our corporate election occurred before creation.

Basically 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says Calvinism is unbiblical. Calvinism is mistaken about when our individual election occurs, and is mistaken about our election being unconditional.

And I have not forgotten my question, how could we be by nature children of wrath, if, as Calvinism claims, our sins including our future sins had been washed away?

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine, but that will become evident only when you look at scripture objectively, rather than through the prism of Calvinism.

 

The problem is that you keep on railing against reformed thought regarding salvation, yet you have a faulty view on what the fall did to us, so your views cannot be supported by the Bible alone!

Where did your faith come from?
How did you change your own heart/mind reagrding who jesus was?
If God credits our faith, is that a good work to merit his grace/favor towards us then?