Featured What did Jesus Mean in John 14:12?

Iconoclast · Jul 28, 2014

thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑

I'm guessing I know where you're trying to go with this RD2, but if I'm wrong, please forgive me. However, a few comments.

The "greater works" cannot refer to signs and wonders that are greater in quality than those done by Jesus because no believer ever has or ever will do greater miracles than Jesus. He raised the dead, opened the eyes of the blind, restored hearing to the deaf, cast out demons, healed the lame, calmed a stormy sea, etc. No miracle-worker has even come close since the days of the apostles, and even the apostles did not do any signs and wonders that were greater.

The Greek word for "greater" used here does not refer to a greater number of works. If John wanted to refer to a greater number of works, he probably
would have used the Greek word polla meaning "more." A careful study of the word meziõn -- "greater" -- in John’s gospel shows that the word consistently refers to something that is greater in quality rather than something that is greater in number. For example, Jesus says to Pilate:

John 19, NASB
11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
In other words, Judas' sin is a more serious sin (not greater in number) than Pilate because he actually betrayed Jesus. The greater works do not mean believers will do more works than Jesus, but this does not negate the idea that they will do works qualitatively better than those Jesus did in His ministry.

When John wants to speak of miracles, he consistently uses the word "sign." "Sign" is the unambiguous word John uses to describe miracles, and the word "works" is a more general term, which may include miracles, but does not necessarily focus on signs and wonders.

All of this suggests that the first part of verse 12 where Jesus says, "the one who believes in me the works I do he shall do also" does not mean that believers will do miracles and signs and Wonders to the same extent as Jesus. The word "works” is a general term, and thus Jesus is simply saying that you will do works of the same quality as I did.. It should also be noted that Jesus' miraculous works were unique in the sense that such "signs" manifested His unique glory from the Father (John 2:11), and John tells us that the signs Jesus did were performed so that "you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and in order that by believing you might have life in his name" (John 20:30-31). Thus, Jesus' miracles were in one sense a unique manifestation of His glory and divinity. This is not to deny that miracles can be done today. The point is that Jesus’ miracles were unique, and no one in church history or in the Bible has ever matched Jesus in miraculous activity.

The greater works, then, refer to the extended work of the Spirit, which occurred when Jesus ascended to the Father. This is not to deny that the Spirit was active previously in significant ways. But the work of the Spirit on earth was intensified with Jesus' ascension. Note that Jesus specifically says that "the greater works" will occur "because I go to the Father." Going to the Father, then, provides the reason or ground for the greater works. But why does Jesus' going to the Father make possible greater works?

The rest of John's gospel answers that question.

John 16
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the 1Helper will not come to you; but if I go, 2I will send Him to you."
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
That fits beautifully with John 14:12. Jesus says that it will be better if He goes because only when He goes will the Spirit be sent. Verses 8-11 make it clear that the Spirit when He comes will convict unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Such conviction of sinners is clearly another way of describing the "greater works” which will occur after Jesus goes. Greater than any healing is the inclusion of one's name in the book of life. Jesus reminds His disciples of this when they are so excited about casting out demons in Luke 10:20.

These "greater works" are done by believers after Jesus' earthly ministry in no way diminishes the ministry of Jesus, nor does it suggest our ministry is somehow better than His, nor does it teach we have been granted any kind of personal power to do those miracles He did ourselves. The greater works refers to the work of the Spirit through believers in convicting unbelievers of their sin, and mediating forgiveness of sins in the name of the risen Lord. But such work is not our work. It is the work of the risen Lord in us and through us.
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:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup::wavey:

The Biblicist · Jul 29, 2014

thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑

I'm guessing I know where you're trying to go with this RD2, but if I'm wrong, please forgive me. However, a few comments.

The "greater works" cannot refer to signs and wonders that are greater in quality than those done by Jesus because no believer ever has or ever will do greater miracles than Jesus. He raised the dead, opened the eyes of the blind, restored hearing to the deaf, cast out demons, healed the lame, calmed a stormy sea, etc. No miracle-worker has even come close since the days of the apostles, and even the apostles did not do any signs and wonders that were greater.

The Greek word for "greater" used here does not refer to a greater number of works. If John wanted to refer to a greater number of works, he probably
would have used the Greek word polla meaning "more." A careful study of the word meziõn -- "greater" -- in John’s gospel shows that the word consistently refers to something that is greater in quality rather than something that is greater in number. For example, Jesus says to Pilate:

John 19, NASB
11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
In other words, Judas' sin is a more serious sin (not greater in number) than Pilate because he actually betrayed Jesus. The greater works do not mean believers will do more works than Jesus, but this does not negate the idea that they will do works qualitatively better than those Jesus did in His ministry.

When John wants to speak of miracles, he consistently uses the word "sign." "Sign" is the unambiguous word John uses to describe miracles, and the word "works" is a more general term, which may include miracles, but does not necessarily focus on signs and wonders.

All of this suggests that the first part of verse 12 where Jesus says, "the one who believes in me the works I do he shall do also" does not mean that believers will do miracles and signs and Wonders to the same extent as Jesus. The word "works” is a general term, and thus Jesus is simply saying that you will do works of the same quality as I did.. It should also be noted that Jesus' miraculous works were unique in the sense that such "signs" manifested His unique glory from the Father (John 2:11), and John tells us that the signs Jesus did were performed so that "you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and in order that by believing you might have life in his name" (John 20:30-31). Thus, Jesus' miracles were in one sense a unique manifestation of His glory and divinity. This is not to deny that miracles can be done today. The point is that Jesus’ miracles were unique, and no one in church history or in the Bible has ever matched Jesus in miraculous activity.

The greater works, then, refer to the extended work of the Spirit, which occurred when Jesus ascended to the Father. This is not to deny that the Spirit was active previously in significant ways. But the work of the Spirit on earth was intensified with Jesus' ascension. Note that Jesus specifically says that "the greater works" will occur "because I go to the Father." Going to the Father, then, provides the reason or ground for the greater works. But why does Jesus' going to the Father make possible greater works?

The rest of John's gospel answers that question.

John 16
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the 1Helper will not come to you; but if I go, 2I will send Him to you."
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
That fits beautifully with John 14:12. Jesus says that it will be better if He goes because only when He goes will the Spirit be sent. Verses 8-11 make it clear that the Spirit when He comes will convict unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Such conviction of sinners is clearly another way of describing the "greater works” which will occur after Jesus goes. Greater than any healing is the inclusion of one's name in the book of life. Jesus reminds His disciples of this when they are so excited about casting out demons in Luke 10:20.

These "greater works" are done by believers after Jesus' earthly ministry in no way diminishes the ministry of Jesus, nor does it suggest our ministry is somehow better than His, nor does it teach we have been granted any kind of personal power to do those miracles He did ourselves. The greater works refers to the work of the Spirit through believers in convicting unbelievers of their sin, and mediating forgiveness of sins in the name of the risen Lord. But such work is not our work. It is the work of the risen Lord in us and through us.
Click to expand...

Very well said! A good example of sound exegetically based expository teaching!

I might add just one more thing. Prior to Pentecost the work of the Holy Spirit in redemption was primarily restricted to Israel although not entirely (Jonah). However, after Pentecost the redemptive work of the Holy Spirit took on a "greater" sphere of application "the world." However, the primarily "Jewish" congregation at Jerusalem refused to enter into this "greater" sphere of operation until Peter was confronted by God, and even then the Jewish congregation was hesitant, and therefore the calling of an apostle to the Gentiles (Paul) was God's solution for extending the ministry of the gospel to the "world."

Yeshua1 · Jul 29, 2014

plain_n_simple said: ↑

No power. Just flesh
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The greatest "power" of the Holy Spirit is twofold among us, one is to enable us to live as we ought for Jesus, and the other is to enable lost sinners to get saved...

Paul said that the Gospel he preached was the birth/life/death/resurrection of Jesus, is that the one you preach also?

Rev. Autrey · Aug 6, 2014

Jesus' statement about greater works will have no meaning if we do not first understand who Jesus is. Let's state it this way, is Jesus God or is he not God? If he is not God, then it makes no difference what he says at all.

But he is God!

That Jesus is God is proven by what John said in John 1:2: "... And the Word (Jesus) was God." Another disciple, Thomas, said of Jesus in the presence of all the disciples, "My Lord and my God." The writer of Hebrews said of Jesus in Hebrews 1:8, "Your throne O God. ..." And in verse 10 he said of Jesus, "Lord (meaning God), in the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands." And finally in Titus 2:14 Paul calls Jesus "our great God and Savior."

We get confused because we forget that God has two other personalities besides Jesus: the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Father is the way God makes his decisions, and the Holy Spirit is the way God inspires us to believe in what he is doing. But Jesus is always the way God speaks to us, and the way God saves us.

We also forget that God is one substance or one being. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Jesus said in Mark 12 that this is the greatest of the commandments. So again, what we are talking about is personality or self identity, or the three ways God rerveals himself to us. The early Church Fathers called them "persons," as in God in three persons, blessed Trinity. But as I said, God always speaks to us as Jesus.

The greater works,then, refers to the accumulated efforts of all Jesus' followers all through the Church age. This is what Jesus was talking about.

May God bless you!

InTheLight · Aug 6, 2014

Rev. Autrey said: ↑

The greater works,then, refers to the accumulated efforts of all Jesus' followers all through the Church age. This is what Jesus was talking about.

May God bless you!
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I think this is the correct answer, esp. missionary work. Welcome to the board, Rev. Autrey.

kyredneck · Aug 6, 2014

Iconoclast said: ↑

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup::wavey:
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The Biblicist said: ↑

Very well said! A good example of sound exegetically based expository teaching!....
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Yeah, it may be a sound exegetically based expository teaching, but true to form dCON has yet again plagiarized someone else's work, I'm guessing Tom Schreiner.

Yeshua1 · Aug 6, 2014

What do you mean by "personalities?"

God is Eternally 3 seperate persons who all are of the same essense, correct?

DHK · Aug 6, 2014

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

"Works" do not necessarily mean miracles, as in sign miracles.
Consider some facts:
The entire population of the world in the time of Christ was about 200,00,00.
There are many nations that have that population now. For example, Pakistan is just under that at about 190,000,000.

Jesus lived 3 1/2 years on this earth and in that limited amount of time was only able to reach a limited amount of people.
A person who is saved at a relatively young age, enters into Bible College and completes his training, having given himself to the Lord; it is possible in this day and age to reach more people than Christ reached. Those are "greater works."

There is no greater work, no greater miracle, than to see a soul come to Christ, changed by the glory of God, rescued from the fires of Hell, transformed into the image of Christ. What greater work is there than that? We are but instruments in His hand as we carry out the Great Commission according to His will and see the results.

Here is but one example:

If you spend any time keeping up with the news, you know that radical Islam is a significant and destructive force in the world. David Garrison, does not disagree with that assessment, but he says it’s only part of the story. There is also a revival in the Muslim world, Garrison says. He believes between 2 and 7 million former Muslims have converted to Christianity in the past two decades, and he has impressive research to back up his claim. He documents his findings in his book A Wind in the House of Islam.
Garrison has a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago and spent more than 25 years as a missionary with the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Missions Board....

The striking thing about what we discovered was that there are movements of Muslims to Christ, and by that I mean not just individuals, but movements of at least 1,000 within a community who have been baptized or 100 churches planted over the last two decades. We’re seeing, currently, 69 of these movements that have just been formed in the last two decades that are moving … from one end of the Muslim world to the other, so from West Africa to Indonesia and everywhere in between. I suppose one of the most striking examples is what’s happening in Iran today. We’re seeing that the Ayatollah Khomeini’s proving to be the greatest evangelist in the history of Iran because so many people are voting with their feet and they’re turning away from Islam and they’re walking toward really, all sorts of things. It’s not exclusively to Christianity, but certainly tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Iranians in the last few decades have come to faith in Jesus Christ and followed him in baptism.
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http://www.worldmag.com/2014/07/the_rising_tide_of_muslim_converts_to_christianity/page1

Greater works?

preacher4truth · Aug 6, 2014

kyredneck said: ↑

Yeah, it may be a sound exegetically based expository teaching, but true to form dCON has yet again plagiarized someone else's work, I'm guessing Tom Schreiner.
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Busted yet again -- you were right kyredneck. And then the acceptance of the recognition and applause for such a fine reply.

Unreal.

This is sad and flagrant. It's called stealing and being deceitful.

Rev. Autrey · Aug 11, 2014

InTheLight said: ↑

I think this is the correct answer, esp. missionary work. Welcome to the board, Rev. Autrey.
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Yeshua1 said: ↑

What do you mean by "personalities?"

God is Eternally 3 seperate persons who all are of the same essense, correct?
Click to expand...

Your personality is who you are or how you express yourself. If you express yourself in a certain way or as a certain person, then people know you as that certain person, and you know yourself as that certain person. God knows himself as the Father. The Father is the way God makes his decisions. God knows himself as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the way God inspires us to believe in him. And, God knows himself as Jesus. This is how God speaks to us and how he saves us.

The word personality comes from the word person or persona, your character or how you display yourself. I have seen professional wreslers display many personas. In this sense they are like actors playing a role. In fact, the early church fathers saw God as an actor playing three different parts. There was no confusion whether he was God, its just that the character of each part they saw him playing was different.

The personality or character he speaks to us through is Jesus. That's why John 1:2 says that the Word or Jesus is God. The Father and the Holy Spirit are God, too.

All of God's persons or personalities are the same essense, but they are not separate fron each other. Jesus said in John 14 that "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." Let's put it this way. God is one God. This means that God is one substance or one being. But this one God expresses himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is to say, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God. And as the old Baptist hymn says: "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, God in thre persons, blessed Trinity."

God bless you!

Revmitchell · Aug 11, 2014

This guy is a modalist and it is heresy.

kyredneck · Aug 11, 2014

...and the slanderer does his thing; Rev can't wait to see if it's true or not, he too anxious to be the first to smear.

Bro. Curtis · Aug 11, 2014

kyredneck said: ↑

Yeah, it may be a sound exegetically based expository teaching, but true to form dCON has yet again plagiarized someone else's work, I'm guessing Tom Schreiner.
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This is very disappointing. :tear:

Several complete paragraphs are lifted, word-for-word.

TNID, you've got some 'splainin' to do.

kyredneck · Aug 13, 2014

BC, for the record, I had warned him (along with others) and given him opportunities to cease this unethical behavior at least on two earlier occasions:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2080566#post2080566

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2075125#post2075125

[add]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2075305#post2075305

Yeshua1 · Aug 13, 2014

Rev. Autrey said: ↑

Your personality is who you are or how you express yourself. If you express yourself in a certain way or as a certain person, then people know you as that certain person, and you know yourself as that certain person. God knows himself as the Father. The Father is the way God makes his decisions. God knows himself as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the way God inspires us to believe in him. And, God knows himself as Jesus. This is how God speaks to us and how he saves us.

The word personality comes from the word person or persona, your character or how you display yourself. I have seen professional wreslers display many personas. In this sense they are like actors playing a role. In fact, the early church fathers saw God as an actor playing three different parts. There was no confusion whether he was God, its just that the character of each part they saw him playing was different.

The personality or character he speaks to us through is Jesus. That's why John 1:2 says that the Word or Jesus is God. The Father and the Holy Spirit are God, too.

All of God's persons or personalities are the same essense, but they are not separate fron each other. Jesus said in John 14 that "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." Let's put it this way. God is one God. This means that God is one substance or one being. But this one God expresses himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is to say, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God. And as the old Baptist hymn says: "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, God in thre persons, blessed Trinity."

God bless you!
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So you see One God, who in the OT times chose to be the father, in NT was the Son, and now in church age he calls himself the Holy Spirit?

NOT 3 seperate persons, but SAME person just with a different label?

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