Featured The Wall That Jesus Christ Broke Down; Rebuilt?

If anyone who holds to Covenantalism and the idea that God has foresaken Israel can explain away these verses, I will adopt your theology.

First, God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the patriarchs and essential founders of Israel the nation and the faith, is an everlasting covenant that will never be cancelled.

Genesis 17, NASB
7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and 3to your descendants after you.
8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." ​

God's love for Israel as His original chosen people is so great that He has promised to keep the covenant He made with their ancestors.

Deuteronomy 7
7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."​

Even though God knew Israel would be disobedient, it is for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's sakes that He keeps the covenant He made with them. He promises this even after enumerating a number of transgressions that were yet to occur when He issued this statement.

Leviticus 26
44 'Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God.
45 'But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.' "​

The Abrahamic Covenant extends to all the Earth, and He has not, nor will He forget, that He has made the former land of Canaan the land of Israel forever.

Psalm 105
7 He is the LORD our God;
His judgments are in all the earth.
8 He has remembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the portion of your inheritance," ​

Israel is not cast away. Not now. Not ever.

Romans 11
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
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25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
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29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. ​

In Ezekiel, God makes it clear that both the nation and the spirit of Israel will be restored, that Israel will be God's people in "the latter days and the latter years."

Ezekiel 37
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the 1whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely 3cut off.'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14 "I will 5put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.' "

Ezekiel 38
8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them."
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16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog." ​

God further states that, in the last days Israel will be God's servants to the world, reaching the world with the Gospel of their Messiah whom they will then recognize.

Revelation 7
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed. ​

Yes, God called Israel "the enemu of the Gospel" for the sake of the church, but He clearly says that nonetheless all Israel will be saved -- spiritual Israel that is also part of the nation of Israel -- He will remove their ungodliness and remove their sins in response to the covenant with the Jews and His love for them as descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This will happen at the Second Coming of Jesus as God promised in Zechariah 11-13. Paul also confirms it. Keep in mind, the Deliverer had already come when Paul wrote this, and his context is that He will come again to fufill Zechariah's prophecy.

Romans 11
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; ​

God said that Israel will be "My people" when the final battle comes.

Joel 3
2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land. ​

I warn you in advance, no conjecture of man, twisting of Scripture or suppositions based on pet theologies is allowed here. Refute Scripture with Scripture. I already know you can't, but have at it.

 

Not quite. Although pretty much any post-Acts-2 form of dispensationalism goes under the banner of "hyperdispensationalism," there are significant differences based on where one believes the "Body of Christ" began.

Acts 9 dispensationalists believe the Body of Christ began at the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, and that when he said that "Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief" (prwtos), he meant "first" as in he was the first in the Body of Christ. They would believe that a "transition period" began in which there were two legitimate gospels going on: the law-based Gospel of the Kingdom to Israel taught by Jesus on earth and "The Twelve," and the grace-based Gospel of the Grace of God for the Church, Which is His Body. God used Peter to preach the gospel of grace to Cornelius and Cornelius became a member of the Body of Christ with Peter's ignorance of what was going on at the time. Only Paul's epistles have correct soteriological doctrine for the Body of Christ.

Acts 13 dispensationalists are similar to Acts 9, but believe that Saul was converted under the Gospel of the Kingdom--hence his baptism was valid for that--and the Body of Christ began when the Jews rejected his sermon (which was a lot like Peter's at Pentecost). Because he said "Lo, we turn to the Gentiles," the Body of Christ began then. Cornelius was still converted as a proselyte to the Kingdom, not to the Body of Christ. They would still consider all of Paul's epistles only as soteriological doctrine for the Body of Christ.

Acts 15 dispensationalists are similar, but believe the Body of Christ began at the Acts 15 Jerusalem council. Thus, those Gentiles who were saved were still saved in the Kingdom, not in the Body of Christ. Most of these believe that all of Paul's epistles are for the Body of Christ, but some might start to nitpick at certain parts as being addressed to "kingdom believers."

There are also variants that could be described as Acts 16 dispensationalists, because they believe the Body of Christ began with the Macedonian call. Basically, God gave Paul two sequential commissions: the first one to Israel (and Gentiles who were "nigh to the covenants of Promise") in Acts 9, and the second one to the Body of Christ (Gentiles who were "strangers to the covenants of Promise"). They may take all of Paul's epistles as primarily to the Body of Christ, but they would see certain parts of the earlier epistles, such as Galatians as pertaining to Gentiles "grafted into Israel," and not Gentiles in the Body of Christ. For example, Gentiles who are "the seed of Abraham" "by faith," are basically Gentiles who fall under the Abrahamic covenant and were gone astray (the stick of Joseph), and that no one in the Body of Christ has ANY connection to Abraham.

Acts 28 dispensationalists believe that the Body of Christ began in Acts 28:28 when God finally "set aside" Israel and called them "Lo-Ammi," and Paul was imprisoned in Rome. They divide Paul's epistles into his "Acts epistles" (1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, 1-2 Thessalonians, and Hebrews) and his "Prison epistles" (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon) and believe that only the Prison epistles are for the Body of Christ. The Acts epistles are to Israel and to those Gentiles who were "grafted into Israel." Thus, everyone saved until Paul was imprisoned are in the Kingdom, not the Body. They reject and mock the "mid-Acts" idea that there was a "transition period" where both the "Kingdom program" and the "Body program" were active.


I have seen some rather heated arguments between Acts 9 and Acts 28 dispensationalists online. There are significant differences between views in this range; but of course, I disagree with all of them.

 

I don't believe, as the hyperpreterist does, that "all thing are fulfilled" in the chronological sense. I DO believe that true, covenantal Israel and the Church are ontologically the same. There are not two peoples that each have their own separate promises in Christ. If you are "in Christ" you are connected to ALL the promises that pertain therein.

The distinction between what is commonly called "Israel" and what is called the Church is one of covenant, not mutually exclusive identity. When we often think of Israel, we think of the constitution of God's people under the Old Covenant that was earthly, national, familial, and full of types and shadows. I believe that the Church IS the ontological New Covenant version of God's people. It was formed by taking the prophesied remnant of Israel (the Jewish apostles and their converts), cutting off the unbelieving natural branches (finalized in the destruction of Jerusalem), and grafting in believing Gentiles. Thus, the newly formed olive tree consists of only believing Jews and Gentiles (compare Romans 11:16 with Jeremiah 11:17). The Gentiles are grafted into the same olive tree, which is called "Israel" in Jeremiah!

 

From your description, I gather the differences, if any could actually be identified, would be the same as the "differences" between a Chevy 283 and a Pontiac 283. In other words, none but the stamp on the engine -- or the label on the hyper-dispensationalist.

I am a Traditional (sometimes called Modified) Dispensationalist: Two peoples of God, Israel and the Church, with differing roles and administrations of relationship with God but salvation is the same for both groups, and they exist together during the Millennium. In a nutshell. Hypers are way too much into minutia that doesn't amount to anything. Classicals are wrong -- the church is not parenthetical to anything. And so-called Progressives are just Covenantalists with window dressing to make them look Dispensational.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention an important thing. All forms of "hyperdispensationalism" would reject water baptism as a proper ordinance for the Body of Christ. However, most mid-Acts varieties believe the Lord's Supper is given to the Body of Christ because Paul delivered it in 1 Corinthians 11. However, Acts 28 dispensationalists reject the Lord's Supper as well, believing that in all cases it pertains to "Israel." 1 Corinthians was one of Paul's "Acts epistles" written to Gentiles "grafted into Israel" before he was imprisoned in Rome.

Another thing: Acts 9-16 dispensationalists are fervent adherents of a pretribulational, premillennial rapture of the Church, but Acts 28 dispensationalists totally reject the rapture idea. They believe that 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about the resurrection "Hope of Israel," not something for the Body of Christ, because, you guessed it, 1 Thessalonians is an "Acts epistle" written before Paul was imprisoned in Rome.

 

That was a lot to "forget to mention." :laugh:

No worries. As I said, Classics, Progressives and Hypers are all off base as far as I'm concerned. Which will probably be read by others on here as "I'm the only one who's right," but that's not what I said. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Don't forget: you wouldn't believe what you do if it weren't for the classics and hypers. Darby, Scofield, Bullinger, and Anderson were before the "Revised/Modified" form, if I recall.

 

Replacement Theology doesn't flow naturally from Scripture, it must be taught.
It was adopted as the official "church" position in the 4th Century by the Catholic Church.

 

It might be, but it wouldn't be true, based on this:

You haven't read my posts. I began studying it for myself, and had drawn some preliminary conclusions with the help of a good Greek dictionary/lexicon, and extrabiblical history on customs and philosophies to help me understand the complexity of thought behind John's Revelation, before I ever picked up a book on theology or eschatology. I didn't know who Darby or Scofield was before I already had a concept of what I believed. That's the way I've always done things. Oh, except in the Army. They wouldn't let me find my own way at flying combat helicopters. :laugh:

 

A few observations:

Yes the covenants belong to Israel. But the true Israel is Jesus not an ethnic group or nation, he fulfilled Israel and now all those who are united to him by faith are the Israel of God. That is the teaching of the NT you cannot escape that.

Rom 4:16 HCSB - This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants -- not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of Abraham's faith. He is the father of us all​

Gal 3:16, 27-29 HCSB - Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed, who is Christ. ... For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment. There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise. ​

:thumbsup:

 

Can you provide proof of this view from Scripture?

 

Give the Brother a cee-gar....:thumbsup:

 

It is convenient to ignore context. In this dispensation everyone must come to Christ the same way: Jews and Gentiles alike. Thus in the church, we are one in Christ. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

That does not negate the fact that ethnic Israel still exists. I am sure you read the news. She is fighting for her life; the center of attention every day.

Romans 11 does speak of a remnant.
Someday that remnant will turn to Christ. That is described many times in the OT, as well as in the book of Revelation. It will happen at the end of the Tribulation and open the way for the beginning of the Millennial reign of Christ.

 

Amen! :thumbsup:

As an aside, I note with interest no effort to take up my challenge.

 

The remnant is coming to Christ daily, one sinner at a time...:thumbsup:

 

Are you counting them to make sure? 12,000 from every tribe? A total of 144,000? We wouldn't want to make any mistakes would we? Where is the count at now Convicted? How many tribes have you taken note of??
The info is in Revelation 7.

 

The remnant is the church, the body of Christ, of which, He is their Head.....