Our Post-Resurrection Bodies (1 Cor. 15)

[pinoybaptist]

I heard a preacher say about our resurrection bodies, that it will be raised a spiritual body (albeit with flesh and bones, no blood as there will be no need for blood in heaven), as compared to our natural bodies, natural meaning no need for air or oxygen (since there is no blood that needs to be the carrier of oxygen).

Now, this made me think a little bit, including up to a little deeper about the meaning of, and its implication to, regeneration.

What do you all Baptists think ?
This should make for an interesting thing to discuss.......civilly thumbsup.

Talk about what other "interesting" preaching on the subject you've heard, and of what you say.
If you're a seminary graduate, forget about the usual "mainstream" teachings you've learned for a while (not bashing seminary education, now..), and give us your own "bizarre" (meant as a joke) thoughts.

 

[JamesL]

The resurrection is not only related to regeneration, resurrection IS regeneration.

Matthew 19:28-29 Jesus said "In the regeneration" or in Greek it's "palingenesia" or literally in the "born again". And the context is clear - When He returns, which is when we will be resurrected. Our body will be born again, or regenerated. THIS body will "stand up" which is what resurrection means

Paul used the same word palingenesia in Titus 3:5 to say that our inner man has been saved by the washing of "regeneration"

Everything the bible says about the regeneration of the inner man - washed, cleansed, purified, justified, etc - will happen to our physical body.

Romans 5:18 calls it "justification" of life.

 

[JamesL]

When Paul said the body is sown "natural" and raised "spiritual", he was not using natural to mean physical. And he was not using spiritual to mean spirit form.

In other uses of natural, he meant immature, carnal, ungodly, etc....in other words, sin-wrecked.

In other uses of spiritual, he meant mature, godly, etc. In other words, NOT sin-wrecked.

This body is wrecked by sin. It gets sick, it gets weak, it gets tired, it is selfish, and it eventually dies because of sin. See Romans 6:23.

Our regenerated body, this same physical body, will not be wrecked by sin. It will not get sick, will not get weak, will not be selfish, and will not die.

The Spirit who raised Christ from the dead, will also give life to THIS mortal body.

The perishable will be raised imperishable. The mortal will put on immortality. Sown in weakness, raised in power. Sown "natural", raised "spiritual"

 

[percho]

The resurrection is not only related to regeneration, resurrection IS regeneration.

Matthew 19:28-29 Jesus said "In the regeneration" or in Greek it's "palingenesia" or literally in the "born again". And the context is clear - When He returns, which is when we will be resurrected. Our body will be born again, or regenerated. THIS body will "stand up" which is what resurrection means

Paul used the same word palingenesia in Titus 3:5 to say that our inner man has been saved by the washing of "regeneration"

Everything the bible says about the regeneration of the inner man - washed, cleansed, purified, justified, etc - will happen to our physical body.

Romans 5:18 calls it "justification" of life.

I agree James. And thank you.

Jesus was the prophet of God like unto Moses; Or as stated in Heb.1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Speaking as the prophet of God Jesus said in John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Jesus died.

But God the Father raised him from the dead. Acts 13:30, Gal.1:1

Raised him from the dead to die no more. Romans 6:9
Raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, giving him, meaning they were not inherent in him when born from Mary, the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:33,34

Jesus was the first born from the dead. Because Jesus was born from the dead with renewed Spirit life, rather than having the soul life, of the flesh, in the blood. Lev 17:11 That is how his blood made atonement for the soul.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, > the following interlinear> through washing of regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy. --- That is speaking of Jesus and in Matt. 19:28 it is speaking of us following Jesus is regeneration.

Because of that, regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy, the blood of Jesus could wash away our sins, make atonement for the soul.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If Jesus has not been regenerated, born again from the dead, his blood has not washed away a thing.

 

[Van]

We actually know quite a bit about our "glorified" bodies. They will be like the resurrected body of Jesus. Still enough like a physical body to be recognized, yet seemingly able to walk through walls. Since the resurrected Jesus ate broiled fish, it would seem able to perform many processes, like eating and breathing, that our mortal bodies exhibit. However, our bodies do not walk through walls, or rise into the air. I believe they will be even better than our dreams.

 

[JamesL]

We actually know quite a bit about our "glorified" bodies. They will be like the resurrected body of Jesus. Still enough like a physical body to be recognized, yet seemingly able to walk through walls. Since the resurrected Jesus ate broiled fish, it would seem able to perform many processes, like eating and breathing, that our mortal bodies exhibit. However, our bodies do not walk through walls, or rise into the air. I believe they will be even better than our dreams.

There's no evidence that Jesus walked through a wall. He simply appeared and vanished, just like He did on the road to Emmaus.

 

[JamesL]

We actually know quite a bit about our "glorified" bodies. They will be like the resurrected body of Jesus. Still enough like a physical body to be recognized, yet seemingly able to walk through walls. Since the resurrected Jesus ate broiled fish, it would seem able to perform many processes, like eating and breathing, that our mortal bodies exhibit. However, our bodies do not walk through walls, or rise into the air. I believe they will be even better than our dreams.

I'm struggling to think of a scripture to support the notion of "glorified" to describe the ontological makeup of our resurrected body

Glory is synonymous with honor, and "glorified" means having honor bestowed upon. Jesus received glory and honor because He suffered death - Heb 2:9-10.

And He is bringing many sibs to glory. Romans 8 has this verbiage in relation to becoming joint-heirs with Him IF we suffer with Him, so that we may be glorified with Him.

Does this mean we can only be resurrected if we suffer? Or that honor comes from suffering?

 

[Van]

I certainly agree scripture does not say Jesus walked through walls, and he might have rolled the stone from the inside. Lets leave it, as a possibility.

Those alive will be "changed" in the twinkling of an eye. The mortal will be exchanged with the immortal.

We can only be resurrected if we are "in Christ" a born anew believer. Everyone of us will be raised up on the last day, Christ will lose none.

There is more than one way to understand Romans 8:17, but a works based salvation is not one of them. Basically it says "if"we are actually saved, then we have been spiritually baptized into His death (thus suffering with Him).

 

[JamesL]

I certainly agree scripture does not say Jesus walked through walls, and he might have rolled the stone from the inside. Lets leave it, as a possibility.

Those alive will be "changed" in the twinkling of an eye. The mortal will be exchanged with the immortal.

We can only be resurrected if we are "in Christ" a born anew believer. Everyone of us will be raised up on the last day, Christ will lose none.

There is more than one way to understand Romans 8:17, but a works based salvation is not one of them. Basically it says "if"we are actually saved, then we have been spiritually baptized into His death (thus suffering with Him).

Romans 8:17 doesn't anything like the "if" you proposed. If we're actually saved?

It says very plainly - If we SUFFER with Him. Why do you think Paul said he was convinced that the suffering of this present time is not worthy to be compared with the GLORY that is to be revealed in us? When? When Christ returns.

Why did he write that God works all things together for good to those who love Him and are called for His purpose??

Why did he write that nothing shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus - then go on to list numerous examples of suffering?

Read Mark 10:35-40, where James and John wanted to sit at Jesus' right and left in His GLORY. He asked.....are you able to drink the cup I drink? Are you able to be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?

Then He goes on with....you will drink thus cup. But to sit at my right and left is not for me to give, it is for those who have been prepared beforehand.

Prepared beforehand? Yes....PREDESTINED. That's why Paul wrote about predestination right smack in the middle of a chapter dealing almost exclusively with suffering, and the glory that comes from it in the resurrection (or regeneration, or renewal of all things)

It's not works. Keep on reading through chapter 9 & 10. It's through faith in Him that we confess that we are known by Hus name (10:9-13).

And Paul said in 10:11 Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame. Compare that to 1John 2:28 "abide in Him, so that when He is revealed we may have confidence and not be put to shame before Him AT HIS COMING" (NRSV).

 

[Van]

Romans 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. (NASB)

1) As I said, there are several ways of understanding Romans 8:17, but to say it does not say in effect "if you are saved" boggles the mind. There is no way to be children and heirs if not saved.

2) If you are indeed pushing a works based salvation, then we disagree fundamentally.

3) Yes, as born anew believers we are to serve Christ, even if it results in suffering, but that has nothing to do with sustaining our salvation.

4) If we are saved, then no matter what happens in this life, it all works out for good because of the surpassing glory of our reward in heaven.

5) Once actually saved, spiritually placed in Christ, born anew, made alive, regenerated spiritually, nothing will separate us from Christ.

6) We ride on Christ's coattails, He suffered on the cross, laying down His life for us.

JamesL, you go on making several other assertions, lets leave it that your view is not consistent, in my opinion, with scripture.

 

[JamesL]

Romans 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. (NASB)

1) As I said, there are several ways of understanding Romans 8:17, but to say it does not say in effect "if you are saved" boggles the mind. There is no way to be children and heirs if not saved.

2) If you are indeed pushing a works based salvation, then we disagree fundamentally.

3) Yes, as born anew believers we are to serve Christ, even if it results in suffering, but that has nothing to do with sustaining our salvation.

4) If we are saved, then no matter what happens in this life, it all works out for good because of the surpassing glory of our reward in heaven.

5) Once actually saved, spiritually placed in Christ, born anew, made alive, regenerated spiritually, nothing will separate us from Christ.

6) We ride on Christ's coattails, He suffered on the cross, laying down His life for us.

JamesL, you go on making several other assertions, lets leave it that your view is not consistent, in my opinion, with scripture.

It seems that a whole host of Reformed philosophers have scared you into into your "works based salvation" view. Don't have to be scared by the vain philosophy of mere mortals. Check the scriptures. Be a Berean.

I'm sure you think you have been...but brother, you take "dividing the word of God" to a whole new level.

Where's the scripture to support your view? Doesn't scripture say that every thing shall be established by two or three witnesses?

So here I come along, establish through Paul, Mark, and John. And you dismiss it as "assertions".

Then you come along with "spiritually placed in Christ" and other phrases which have ZERO scriptural witness, and I'm the one who's not consistent with scripture?

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself, your interpretation, and your pretentious rebuttal

 

[Van]

Hi JamesL, I disagee with you. Does that make me reformed? Nope
Does that make me a "works based view" kind of guy? Nope.
Does that make my view a "vain philosophy?" Nope
Could my view be mistaken? Yes, but on the other hand, so could yours.
Where's the scripture to support my view? I supported my view of Romans 8:17 by providing the NASB translation of Romans 8:17.
No truth taught in scripture, even if found in just one verse, can be dismissed because it does not have multiple witnesses. That idea applies to the testimony of people, not the inspired word of God, which is trustworthy and reliable.

You made a number of assertions and I address several of them. If you care to make one or two, supported by specific references to scripture, I will address them.

So you think the concept of being spiritually placed in Christ is not found in scripture. Read Romans 6. I do not believe anyone says we were physically baptized into Christ (verse 3) and so that placement, called positional sanctification, is spiritual.

One of us should be ashamed, I can agree with you there.

 

[percho]

I would like to know what both you think of this thought.

Can I look at Romans 8:17 in the same context as Matthew 20:22,23

Jesus asked: Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

They said yes we can and then Jesus stated:

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

First I will need to ask is baptism, inclusive of life from the dead, with Spirit glorified life filled bodies, and declared son ship?

Then he *permitted Him. After (and) being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matt 3:15,16,17 NASB

Romans 1:4 KJV And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Does not Romans 8:17 confirm the same statement of Jesus in Matt.?

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. KJV


That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I moved a comer before that in bold.

 

[JamesL]

I would like to know what both you think of this thought.

Can I look at Romans 8:17 in the same context as Matthew 20:22,23

Jesus asked: Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

They said yes we can and then Jesus stated:

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

First I will need to ask is baptism, inclusive of life from the dead, with Spirit glorified life filled bodies, and declared son ship?

Then he *permitted Him. After (and) being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matt 3:15,16,17 NASB

Romans 1:4 KJV And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Does not Romans 8:17 confirm the same statement of Jesus in Matt.?

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. KJV


That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I moved a comer before that in bold.

Not only can you, but you should see Romans 8:17 in the same context as Matthew 20:20-23. This is exactly the same issue I referenced from Mark 10:35-40.

Drink the cup...Jesus prayed that "this cup" might pass, referring to His coming suffering. The baptism He was baptized with, same issue suffering.

And if you keep reading those accounts in Matthew 20 & Mark 10, Jesus teaches that this glory they sought was for those who had been prepared beforehand. He's telling them that some were predestined for this glory. Keep reading Romans 8, and you see Paul teaching the same thing.

Some were foreknown, then are conformed to the image of Christ, and end up being glorified.

This has nothing to do with what type of body we'll have, it has everything to do with honor and becoming joint-heirs with Christ.

Read 2Peter 1:17 how Christ received glory when the Father said "This is My Son, with whom I am well pleased"

His baptism was a picture of His suffering. See 1Peter 2:20-21 how we have been called to suffer with Christ, and 1Peter 5:10 that we've been called to His eternal glory.

That's what Paul was speaking about in Rom 8 when he wrote about predestination.

I'm trying to give a small snippet for the sake of brevity. There is much, much more in the whole of the New Testament.

One must stop viewing salvation as "saved from hell, going to heaven" in order to see the magnificent glory which will be revealed in us at His coming.

Not for every believer, but for those who are led by the Holy Spirit, confess Christ before men, and endure to the end being conformed to His image thru suffering

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, anytime you use the baptize or baptism, you need to clearly say whether you are talking about spiritual baptism or water baptism or some other figurative use of the term.

Question, Jesus had already been water baptized when the statement in Mark 10:38-39 was made. The baptism refers figuratively to His death.

Note, James was killed.

So by the numbers,
1) Romans 8:17 has nothing to do with water baptism.
2) We share in Christ's sufferings when we are baptized into His death, Romans 6:1-8.

 

[percho]

Hi Percho, anytime you use the baptize or baptism, you need to clearly say whether you are talking about spiritual baptism or water baptism or some other figurative use of the term.

Question, Jesus had already been water baptized when the statement in Mark 10:38-39 was made. The baptism refers figuratively to His death.

Note, James was killed.

So by the numbers,
1) Romans 8:17 has nothing to do with water baptism.
2) We share in Christ's sufferings when we are baptized into His death, Romans 6:1-8.

I think the suffering of Romans 8:17 is inclusive of suffering unto death and inheriting the glory is the same glory Jesus prayed for in John 17 which came after his resurrection, which was a part of the baptism of Matt 20. We are joint heirs with Christ. Whatever he inherits we also inherit.

The water baptism of Jesus was figurative of his death, his being made alive from the dead, regeneration, his receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father Acts 2:33 & Rom 1:4 and declared Son because of the resurrection Rom 1:4 & Acts 13:33 Thou art my Son this day have I begotten (born) thee.

OP we will inherit the same kind of body as Jesus inherited.

 

[Van]

"I think the suffering of Romans 8:17 is inclusive of suffering unto death" might mean we must physically suffer death, or it might mean when we were spiritually baptized into Christ's death, we became partakers of Christ's suffering. I cannot tell exactly what you are saying.

2) We become heirs of God when we are born anew as spiritual children of God, and spiritual siblings of Christ.

3) Christ's prayer that God would glorify Him includes both is death of the cross as the Lamb of God, and His resurrection, John 17:5.

4) In John 17:10 Jesus says He has been glorified as God incarnate, i.e. the Word of God who became flesh speaking the very words of God.

5) Jesus had been glorified as one speaking the very words of God, and now His disciples have been given by Jesus, that same glory, to speak the very words of God, John 17:22.

6) In John 17:24, I think Jesus is asking that He appear to His disciples in His resurrected body, i.e. so they may behold His glory.

7) To repeat, Percho, you said, "which was part of the baptism of Matthew 20." Again, specifically what baptism, spiritual, water, figurative for His death, are you referring to??? And btw, my bible does not refer to baptism in Matthew 20. Why not reference Mark 10:38-39. That refers figuratively to Christ's actual physical death on the cross as "baptism."

 

[JamesL]

"I think the suffering of Romans 8:17 is inclusive of suffering unto death" might mean we must physically suffer death, or it might mean when we were spiritually baptized into Christ's death, we became partakers of Christ's suffering. I cannot tell exactly what you are saying.

2) We become heirs of God when we are born anew as spiritual children of God, and spiritual siblings of Christ.

3) Christ's prayer that God would glorify Him includes both is death of the cross as the Lamb of God, and His resurrection, John 17:5.

4) In John 17:10 Jesus says He has been glorified as God incarnate, i.e. the Word of God who became flesh speaking the very words of God.

5) Jesus had been glorified as one speaking the very words of God, and now His disciples have been given by Jesus, that same glory, to speak the very words of God, John 17:22.

6) In John 17:24, I think Jesus is asking that He appear to His disciples in His resurrected body, i.e. so they may behold His glory.

7) To repeat, Percho, you said, "which was part of the baptism of Matthew 20." Again, specifically what baptism, spiritual, water, figurative for His death, are you referring to??? And btw, my bible does not refer to baptism in Matthew 20. Why not reference Mark 10:38-39. That refers figuratively to Christ's actual physical death on the cross as "baptism."

There's nothing figurative about baptism in Mark 10. Baptized literally means "immersed"

Jesus was literally immersed in suffering when He died upon the cross. He wasn't figuratively immersed in suffering.

 

[beameup]

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. Exodus 19:6
John's Baptism was the initial step in the process of making Israel a Kingdom of Priests on the earth.

We, as the Body of Christ, in this Dispensation of Grace, are spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ and destined for heavenly places.

Following the Tribulation, Israel will become a "Kingdom of Priests" with Jesus the Messiah established in Jerusalem.

 

[Van]

There's nothing figurative about baptism in Mark 10. Baptized literally means "immersed"

Jesus was literally immersed in suffering when He died upon the cross. He wasn't figuratively immersed in suffering.

Yes but "immersed in suffering" is a figurative turn of phrase.