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God Created the Vessels of Wrath !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Jan 13, 2015.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Prov 16:4

    4 The Lord hath made/created all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Here in this verse, the Word Things imply's people, humans, the wicked !

    Another verse that speaks of the purpose of the wicked Job 21:30

    That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

    I believe that both the wicked in Prov 16:4 and Job 21:30 are the ones Paul calls the Vessels of Wrath here Rom 9:22

    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Now understand something, some of and perhaps most of mankind, were for the purpose of God, were by God Himself created to be objects of His Wrath or Eternal/ Everlasting Destruction for their sins as these 2 Thess 1:9

    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    And whether Vessels of Wrath or Mercy, God Created us all according to the Counsel of His Own Will/Purpose.

    Now the Vessels of Wrath are those He gave a physical being and existence to, yet He never had Chosen them in Christ before the foundation as He did those He Loved Eph 1:4-5

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Note: There is no evidence in scripture that God Loved any save His Chosen Deut 7:6-7

    For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    God denied the Vessels of Wrath to be part of His Election of Grace. Such ones will never and had never had their names written in the Lambs Book of Life, neither did the Lamb slain from the foundation shed one ounce of His Blood for them, nor will the Holy Spirit,in conjunction with Election and the Death of Christ, give them any Spiritual life, No New Birth, for such Spiritual Blessings come solely in conjunction with and according to being Chosen in the Beloved Eph 1:3-6 !
     
    #1 savedbymercy, Jan 13, 2015
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You don't study much do you? Your methodology is "proof text," proof text, etc.

    (YLT) All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil.

    (ISV) The LORD made everything answerable to him, including the wicked at the time of trouble.

    He didn't create them to be damned, as you suggest. God is not the author of evil, as you believe him to be. You have a warped concept of God. You don't believe that God is a God of love.
     
    #2 DHK, Jan 13, 2015
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Show me a verse that says that ?

    He Created them for the Day of Evil, which is the Day of Wrath Job 21:30

    30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

    What verse says that ?

    God is the Author of all things, Created all things, all men, all angels, so how could evil by any have been committed if it was not for God Creating anyone to commit it ?
     
    #3 savedbymercy, Jan 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2015
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Evil is not a "thing." It is the absence of good. God is good; not evil. You are attributing to "The One who is Goodness" evil.
    That is blasphemous.
     
    #4 DHK, Jan 13, 2015
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    What scripture says that evil is not a thing ?
     
    #5 savedbymercy, Jan 13, 2015
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    yes indeed - I am about to have "a field day"!!

    "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

    Just when you said "no - that cannot be".

    This is a great highlight on Spurgeon's view of a key doctrine in Calvinism - as we find it in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

    Clearly the statement above identified without question what Calvinism considers to be the determining element in all cases where one person is lost and another saved.


    But in so doing - Spurgeon is stuck at the point of making God the author of His own "lament".


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]


    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

    [FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

    [FONT=&quot]================================

    [FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

    [FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    =======================

    You have claimed that this lament is impossible because God alone controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were l
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jan 13, 2015
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You have proved nothing but that you don't believe the scripture !
     
    #7 savedbymercy, Jan 13, 2015
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    God Created the Vessels of Wrath !2

    God purposing to Create a portion of mankind for eternal wrath was necessary in order that His Salvation for His People can be seen to be to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace Eph 1:4-6

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    So God's Special Sovereign Distinguishing Love, Mercy and Grace is seen more Evidently from the backdrop of Eternal Reprobation, So Pre Eternal Reprobation was Just for the demostration of Pre Eternal Election of Grace in God's scheme of things to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace !
     
    #8 savedbymercy, Jan 14, 2015
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is not one word of the damned or reprobate or the unsaved in those verses. It speaks of the save or "elect" if you wish--and only the saved.

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    He predestinated us...according to his good pleasure.
    The corollary isn't necessarily true. There isn't anything mentioned about the unsaved. You are just reading that into the passage. It is the illogical fallacy of an argument of silence. With that fallacy you can make the Bible teach anything you want.

    Is the Bible made of green cheese? Of course it is! Why?
    The Bible doesn't say it isn't. That is your fallacious argument.
    Proof! Show me in the Bible where it doesn't say that it isn't!
    This is your type of argumentation or debate.
     
    #9 DHK, Jan 14, 2015
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I do not see one single verse in the op that says God created some men for the sole purpose of damning them.


    I do not see in the op that God refuses to ever give some men grace or withholds salvation from them.


    Can someone point those out to me?
     
    #10 Revmitchell, Jan 14, 2015
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    There is not one scripture that says God did not Create some people for the sole purpose of damning them !
     
    #11 savedbymercy, Jan 14, 2015
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Evasion and Rabbit Trail !
     
    #12 savedbymercy, Jan 14, 2015
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    IOW, you have no answer. Why don't you just say so. :laugh:
     
    #13 DHK, Jan 14, 2015
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Evasion and Rabbit Trail from the points I made with scripture !
     
    #14 savedbymercy, Jan 14, 2015
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    They remain in a lost state !

    The Vessels of Wrath, those who God determined to fit for destruction Rom 9:22

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    These remain permanently in a Lost unconverted state, confirming their way to perdition and destruction !

    Now understand, all men by nature are lost in a unconverted state, in a estranged state out of fellowship with God, However not all men remain in this Lost state, but only some do, which are the vessels of wrath, but for the Vessels of Mercy, who are also by nature lost and estranged from God, by their Eternal Election and the Blood of Christ have been found and saved, and shall be saved from a lost unconverted state, by New Birth from above, but the vessels of wrath shall never be.

    All for whom Christ died, those given to the Son by the Father in Election Eph 1:4, they shall all in time be saved from their natural lost state, according to the Divine Mercy through Christ Titus 3:5

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    But the vessels of wrath shall never experience this being saved according to the Mercy of God , because they were not of the vessels of mercy !
     
    #15 savedbymercy, Jan 14, 2015
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That is not what it says. You have done the same thing here that you did in 2Cor.4:3--ignore the context, even omitting part of it, skewing the entire meaning of the verse. You should be ashamed.
    Note the first few words, and note them well!

    What if God,
    What if? What IF? It is a suppositional statement, not a declarative statement. IF is a condition. What if God did this...
    But God did not say that he made vessels of destruction. You are the only one that says that, taking these verses out of context.
    How do you know which group you are in? How do you know what kind of vessel you are? Are you sure you are one of the ones for whom Christ died? How would you know for sure?
    Titus 3:5 does not teach anything about election.
    What if...vessels of wrath? It never says he made any. You are making an unfounded assumption here. You are not even on the right topic, having taken the verse out of its context.
     
    #16 DHK, Jan 15, 2015
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sooooo.....you got nothing.
     
    #17 Revmitchell, Jan 15, 2015
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Evasion and Rabbit Trail !
     
    #18 savedbymercy, Jan 15, 2015
  19. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Does your Bible not contain the words "if" and "what if?" Those words are incredibly important to the context that you have butchered in this scripture and in 2 Corinthians 4. By removing the "if" and "what if" statements, you render these verses to mean something they do not actually mean. Then you have the self-righteousness to claim that, because the Bible doesn't directly oppose your claim with a verbatim verse of your choosing, then your point of view is the truth and everyone else is in error.

    The scripture in Romans 9:19-26 reads:
    In a statement reminiscent of Job's discussion with the Almighty, Paul is telling the Romans that it is not our place to question God. He is the potter, we are the clay. The potter has power over the clay, to make whatever He deems good for His creation. Remember also that our God does not make us in one form and then leave us there (as your theology of born saved or born damned seems to indicate), but rather works to refine us in this life, chastising us for sin, and requiring repentance and faithfulness from us.
     
    #19 PreachTony, Jan 15, 2015
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