SDA and failed prophecies

[targus]

A question for SDA members...

How does an SDA tell the difference between a FAILED/FALSE prophecy and a CONDITIONAL prophecy?

For example, concerning a conference in 1856 Ellen White declared: "I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'

Since all who were alive then are now dead how does an SDA know that this was a CONDITIONAL prophecy and not a FALSE prophecy?

 

[BobRyan]

Jonah's message to Nineveh -- was it conditional to failed?

Here is his message -

Jonah 3
Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.


====================

The Bible reason that this is not a failed prophecy --

Jer 18
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”’”
========================

Notice that Moses does not go to Israel in Egypt with the "promise" that they will have the wonderful opportunity to "die in the wilderness".

In fact that sort of thing is the very thing the unbelievers in the camp of Israel kept accusing Moses of doing.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I notice that the question was left unanswered. The question was, "How do you tell the difference between a false prophecy and a conditional prophecy?" I, too, am curious as to an SDA's answer.

 

[targus]

Jonah's message to Nineveh -- was it conditional to failed?

Let's stick with the OP question...

"...concerning a conference in 1856 Ellen White declared: "I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'"

Since all who were alive then are now dead how does an SDA know that this was a CONDITIONAL prophecy and not a FALSE prophecy?

 

[BobRyan]

I notice that the question was left unanswered. The question was, "How do you tell the difference between a false prophecy and a conditional prophecy?" I, too, am curious as to an SDA's answer.

The reason Jonah's message is not a failed prophecy ---even though he offers no "IF" in his message -- is because of the Jeremiah 18 principle for ALL prophecy that pertains to blessing or curses.

And it is perfectly illustrated "for good" in the example of Jonah and Nineveh.

It is illustrated "for bad outcome" in the case of Israel not being freed from Egypt to live in Canaan but rather to die in the wilderness during 40 years of wandering.

The better question then is -- what Prophecy is immune from the Jeremiah 18 principle for prophecy??

Hint: "give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sapper Woody]

The reason Jonah's message is not a failed prophecy ---even though he offers no "IF" in his message -- is because of the Jeremiah 18 principle for ALL prophecy that pertains to blessing or curses.

And it is perfectly illustrated "for good" in the example of Jonah and Nineveh.

It is illustrated "for bad outcome" in the case of Israel not being freed from Egypt to live in Canaan but rather to die in the wilderness during 40 years of wandering.

The better question then is -- what Prophecy is immune from the Jeremiah 18 principle for prophecy??

Hint: "give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible"

in Christ,

Bob

Ok, so that covers doomsday prophecies. That seems legit. But what about the prophecy mentioned in the OP?

 

[BobRyan]

The promise to Israel in Egypt that they were going to Canaan was not a "doomsday" prophecy - as you and I will probably both agree.

But they turned back from following God and so 40 years of wandering .. Covered by the same Jeremiah 18 principle about promise of good things to come only to have them delayed in the case of Israel.

 

[Salty]

BR - if you don't want to answer the OP - just say so.

 

[targus]

The reason Jonah's message is not a failed prophecy ---even though he offers no "IF" in his message -- is because of the Jeremiah 18 principle for ALL prophecy that pertains to blessing or curses.

No one is suggesting that Johan's message is a failed prophecy. That is merely your misdirection to avoid answering the OP question.

"...concerning a conference in 1856 Ellen White declared: "I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'"

Since all who were alive then are now dead how does an SDA know that this was a CONDITIONAL prophecy and not a FALSE prophecy?

Surely you have tested this particular prophecy of Ellen White since you accept her as a prophet.

Please share.

 

[Revmitchell]

No one is suggesting that Johan's message is a failed prophecy. That is merely your misdirection to avoid answering the OP question.

Bingo!

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[BobRyan]

Jonah 3
Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.

No one is suggesting that Johan's message is a failed prophecy.

What is it about the details in the prophecy that leads you to conclude that his 40 day prediction did not fail?

Is it Jeremiah 18? A Bible principle of some sort??

-- what Prophecy is immune from the Jeremiah 18 principle for prophecy in your mind??

Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to these key Bible principles on prophecy "for the sake of this thread"???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to these key Bible principles on prophecy "for the sake of this thread"???

So apply Biblical principles and TEST Ellen White to show that she is a prophet.

PROVE that the prophesy in the OP is "conditional" and that Ellen White is not a false prophet.

Either directly answer the OP question or admit that you cannot.

Misdirection and strawmen won't help here.

 

[Getting it Right]

"for the sake of this thread"???

That's what we drift into (or ram into) in most of our posts. For the sake of ANY thread we ignore what God has to say about it. Our "firm foundation" becomes full of cracks due to our own ego.

:1_grouphug: ~ Prayer......

 

[BobRyan]

Jonah 3
Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.

Originally Posted by targus
No one is suggesting that Johan's message is a failed prophecy.

What is it about the details in the prophecy that leads you to conclude that his 40 day prediction did not fail?

Is it Jeremiah 18? A Bible principle of some sort??

-- what Prophecy is immune from the Jeremiah 18 principle for prophecy in your mind??

Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to these key Bible principles on prophecy "for the sake of this thread"???

So many ways people find to avoid Jeremiah 18, and the example given in scripture in the case of Jonah with respect to Nineveh and of course Moses in the case of Israel promised Canaan while enslaved in Egypt.

That's what we drift into (or ram into) in most of our posts. For the sake of ANY thread we ignore what God has to say about it. Our "firm foundation" becomes full of cracks due to our own ego.

:1_grouphug: ~ Prayer......

good points all --

Now if the Bible is not considered too offensive -- in the examples given above - let us have that sola-scriptura review of what the Bible says about prophecy.

It is only after one learns the material --that we can then apply it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

--that we can then apply it.

So then why do you not do it with the specific "prophecy" in the OP?

Surely you can cut and paste something from your SDA library that directly explains how one may know that specific "prophecy" was a "conditional" prophecy and not simply a failed prophecy of a false prophet.

This is a slow over the plate underhand pitch that any SDA should be able to easily hit out of the park. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[targus]

Why am I beginning to suspect that SDA's haven't really vetted Ellen White's prophecies? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Jonah 3
Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by targus
No one is suggesting that Johan's message is a failed prophecy.

What is it about the details in the prophecy that leads you to conclude that his 40 day prediction did not fail?

Is it Jeremiah 18? A Bible principle of some sort??

-- what Prophecy is immune from the Jeremiah 18 principle for prophecy in your mind??

Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to these key Bible principles on prophecy "for the sake of this thread"???

So many ways people find to avoid Jeremiah 18, and the example given in scripture in the case of Jonah with respect to Nineveh and of course Moses in the case of Israel promised Canaan while enslaved in Egypt.

Notice that these texts are so "offensive" to the bible intolerant that they will not respond to them or deal with them "as if we were on a Catholic board".

How is it that sola-scriptura testing and evaluation is so offensive to those posting on this thread?? They avoid Jeremiah 18 like it was scripture.

They avoid Jonah 3 -- like it was scripture.

They avoid the example given in the Exodus -- like it was scripture.

they avoid discussing the principle of these 2 cases ... one for calamity and one example for blessing deferred - like it was scripture.

Wait! I know why... because "it is scripture" and it does not please their "preference of the moment".

And what Catholic board could not do the same??

C-vs-A section of the board "can have" a substantive discussion "of actual scripture" for some brief moments - but this section?? and this topic??

Not even one???

(No wait! -- Targus does not post on C-v-A... ok... never mind)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

And none of that addresses the OP question.

Just more misdirection.

 

[BobRyan]

Until you read your Bible and start testing doctrines "sola scriptura" instead of "sola man-made-tradition ad populum".

1 Cor 15 "We shall not ALL sleep -- but we shall ALL be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet"

Turns out they did ALL asleep from Paul's day onward.


Notice that these texts are so "offensive" to the bible intolerant that they will not respond to them or deal with them "as if we were on a Catholic board".

How is it that sola-scriptura testing and evaluation is so offensive to those posting on this thread?? They avoid Jeremiah 18 like it was scripture.

They avoid Jonah 3 -- like it was scripture.

They avoid the example given in the Exodus -- like it was scripture.

they avoid discussing the principle of these 2 cases ... one for calamity and one example for blessing deferred - like it was scripture.

Wait! I know why... because "it is scripture" and it does not please their "preference of the moment".

 

[The Biblicist]

Until you read your Bible and start testing doctrines "sola scriptura" instead of "sola man-made-tradition ad populum".

1 Cor 15 "We shall not ALL sleep -- but we shall ALL be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet"

Turns out they did ALL asleep from Paul's day onward.


Notice that these texts are so "offensive" to the bible intolerant that they will not respond to them or deal with them "as if we were on a Catholic board".

How is it that sola-scriptura testing and evaluation is so offensive to those posting on this thread?? They avoid Jeremiah 18 like it was scripture.

They avoid Jonah 3 -- like it was scripture.

They avoid the example given in the Exodus -- like it was scripture.

they avoid discussing the principle of these 2 cases ... one for calamity and one example for blessing deferred - like it was scripture.

Wait! I know why... because "it is scripture" and it does not please their "preference of the moment".

Your defense of YOUR false prophet is EXACTLY the same NATURE of defense provided of all false prophets and prophecies (.e.g., J.W's false prophet and prophecies; Mormonisms false prophet and false prophecies, etc.)