Featured A Skopos Version of John 17

9. I ask for them; I do not ask for the world but for those who You have given to Me, because they are Yours.
9 Ἐγὼ περὶ αὐτῶν ἐρωτῶ· οὐ περὶ τοῦ κόσμου ἐρωτῶ, ἀλλὰ περὶ ὧν δέδωκάς μοι, ὅτι σοί εἰσιν· (Joh 17:9 BYZ)

This is a fairly straightforward verse. Any of my Greek 102 students could translate it easily in a literal rendering. The two verbs “I ask” are present active indicative, as is the final “they are.” The aspect of the present for “ask” is continuous, so they could have been translated “I am asking.” The verb for “have given” is a perfect active indicative, with the aspect of having occurred in the past with continuing ramifications. So Christ continues His relationship with the disciples.

 

Sorry, no comparison. Acts 7:55 has a different verb, avteni,zw.

The verb in John 17:1 is evpai,rw, which when used with ovfqalmoj becomes an idiom, "to raise one's gaze." The verb there virtually always is a physical raising, even in this idiom. It occurs 19 times in the NT, every time with a physical raising, except twice by Paul in Corinthians where it has a metaphorical meaning. Therefore, when you say "Lifted his eyes into Heaven," you have abandoned the idiom and are saying He actually put His eyeballs into Heaven. See Acts 27:40, where they raised the sail, described with this word.

 

10. And all that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been glorified in them.
10 καὶ τὰ ἐμὰ πάντα σά ἐστιν, καὶ τὰ σὰ ἐμά· καὶ δεδόξασμαι ἐν αὐτοῖς. (Joh 17:10 BYZ)

This is another straightforward verse. The verb for “to be” (ἐστιν) is a present active indicative, third person plural, “They are.” The word for “glorified” is a perfect passive. So the aspect of a past event with continuing results is in play.

“Glorify” is a difficult word. A really radical and modern translation might say, “They make me look good,” but that would simply be wrong. It’s more than that. It could be “They praise (or compliment) me,” but the way Jesus used it is much more than that. I don’t see any other alternative than “glorified.”

 

11. And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I Myself am going to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name who You have given to Me, that they might be one just as We are.
11 Καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ οὗτοι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσίν, καὶ ἐγὼ πρός σε ἔρχομαι. Πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου, ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἕν, καθὼς ἡμεῖς.(Joh 17:11 BYZ)

This is an interesting verse to interpret, since Christ was technically still in the world at this point. However, this is one place where difficulty of exegesis does not affect the translation, which is fairly straightforward. The first three verbs, “am” and “are” and “going,” are all present active indicative (the third one being a deponent verb, passive in form and active in meaning). Therefore their aspect is continual. This is very hard to get into the target language in a “to be” verb, but the third verb was translated as “am going.” This may solve the exegesis problem in that Christ viewed Himself as being in the process of going, according to the verb He chose.

The next verb is again an imperative of entreaty. We then have “you gave” in the perfect once more.

The final phrase is another hina purpose clause with the subjunctive of “to be.”

Concerning the conjunctions, I translated them literally for the sake of my skopos, but this is a place where the translator might have license to be freer, as in “but” in place of the second “and.”

 

Too bad. I mistakenly thought that we were having a profitable conversation and that I was helping you understand the text. Oh well, at least my 18 Greek 102 students still listen to me. :tongue3:

"Lifted up his eyes into Heaven" = in English, this means he picked up his eyes and put them into Heaven. (I think my English 101 students would get this. :smilewinkgrin: )

"Lifted up his vision (gaze, eyesight, etc.) into Heaven" = Good English, wrong meaning for the Greek of John 17:1.

I have friends who are scholars and Bible translators and textual critics in Greek and Hebrew, and my son whose office is two doors down has a PhD in NT Greek linguistics and has helped translate the Bible into Japanese. So if you want to teach me on this thread, please give me your qualifications to teach me about translating the Bible. Perhaps you have something to help me, but I've not seen it yet.

So far you have contributed nothing to this thread to help me teach translation method. Keep trying. :smilewinkgrin:

 

That is correct. Wycliffe was wrong. That is why every version since then has corrected his mistake, including the Geneva Bible ("to heaven"), the KJV ("to heaven") and even Young's Literal ("to the heaven").

 

12. When I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Your name, and I have protected those who You had given Me, and none of them perished except for the son of destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
12 Ὅτε ἤμην μετ᾽ αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, ἐγὼ ἐτήρουν αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου· οὓς δέδωκάς μοι, ἐφύλαξα, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἐξ αὐτῶν ἀπώλετο, εἰ μὴ ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ. (Joh 17:12 BYZ)

The first phrase is easy. The second phrase has an imperfect verb, which I translated as “was keeping” to bring out the continuous aspect. The next two verbs are perfect tenses, which I translated as “have protected” and “had given” to bring out the aspect. Both of these verbs might well be translated with a simple English past in various versions, but the skopos here is to produce a teaching version.

The verb for “perished” is ἀπώλετο, from avpo,llumi, a strong word in the aorist middle/passive, used many times in the NT. Interesting how Jesus appears to be looking at events from outside of time, considering the tenses He uses.

The last two phrases are standard Greek, with no surprises. We have an εἰ μὴ phrase which literally means “if not” but is usually translated “except” because the meaning is not quite analogous to the English “if not.” Then we have another hina clause which might be “for the purpose of the Scripture being fulfilled.” Putting it into smoother English I rendered it “so that….”

 

You say you have commentaries on your side. So, you first. Why would you ask me to provide a commentary when you haven't?

I've already moved the ball forward. You still want to argue about v. 1, but I'll post v. 13 today

 

13. But now I am going to You, and I am saying these things in the world so that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
13 Νῦν δὲ πρός σε ἔρχομαι, καὶ ταῦτα λαλῶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, ἵνα ἔχωσιν τὴν χαρὰν τὴν ἐμὴν πεπληρωμένην ἐν αὐτοῖς. (Joh 17:13 BYZ)

This verse is interesting in that it starts with two conjunctions, Νῦν (“Now”) and δὲ (“but, and”). In the context, it makes sense to translate both of them, beginning the sentence with “But now….” The first two verbs are present active indicative, and I translated them with “am” to show that aspect.

Next we have another hina purpose clause. The verbs in the hina clause are a present active subjunctive (“might have”) and a perfect passive participle, the first participle we’ve seen in John 17. It’s in the accusative with an article (substantival usage), making it the object of the previous verb. This would be an instructive verse to help young translators with their participles, a difficult study in Greek grammar.

 

Interesting.