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Christians not commanded to refrain from bowing before images?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
And again, it's been shown on this very thread how that's not true. There have been prayers to patron saints posted here. I've seen prayers to Michael. You can say that Catholics only pray to God until you're blue in the face. But it simply isn't true.
All 'prayer' is not worship. In original English, to pray is simply to request. Like "I pray thee sir please do not harm me." A friend of mine was in the UK a few years ago and he attended a trial hearing in the English Court called the QB (Queen's Bench). He was amused to hear the old language used by the barristers and the the judge in their powdered wigs. The barrister would say "My Lord, I pray that you would consider this motion in light of....". It is in that type of sense that we "pray" to the saints. "Mary, pray for me." I can ask Mary to pray for me without worshiping Mary. You believe that those who have gone to be with the Lord are ignorant of what happens on earth, Catholics do not. You believe you can ask other Christians to intercede (mediate) for you and others (so do we), but we believe those who are with the Lord can intercede for us and do. But, Catholics are also taught that only God almighty is worthy of adoration.
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Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
The statement was clear. The claim was Catholics do not "pray" to anyone else. Not "worship".
But, to answer your post, the Bible is clear. Christ is our only mediator. No one else is there to take our requests to Him.
Sapper Woody, the prayers we " pray" to the saints in heaven are not conveyed to Jesus if Jesus doesn't allow it, but the Bible tells us that the saints are honored and the prayers from a worthy person are welcomed by God as the Bible tells us:
{ 1 Cor.12: 24-27 } " But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body but that the members may have the same care for one another if one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it "
Romans 2:9
1 Cor. 11:1 " Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ"
When we horror and venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints, we are really honoring God Himself, for we are recognizing and praising the beauty of His creations.
{ 1 Cor.12: 24-27 } " But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body but that the members may have the same care for one another if one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it "
Romans 2:9
1 Cor. 11:1 " Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ"
When we horror and venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints, we are really honoring God Himself, for we are recognizing and praising the beauty of His creations.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
No one prayed to, bowed down to, promised to serve the cherubim on the ark.
In Rev 22 when John tries to bow down to one in person - that cherubim says "do not do that".
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
======================== by contrast
Tell me if I have this right.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3K...ice%22&f=false
Prayer to St. Francis
– St. Francis
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
======================== by contrast
Tell me if I have this right.
Book: The Catholic Catechism
By John Hardon
THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
The Catholic Church carefully distinguishes the worship of adoration given
to God and the worship of veneration offered to the angels and saints.
And in that same sectionBy John Hardon
THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
The Catholic Church carefully distinguishes the worship of adoration given
to God and the worship of veneration offered to the angels and saints.
This is completely different from the veneration offered to the angels
and saints, no matter how exalted. They deserve to be honored because of
their nearness to God. Even the Blessed Virgin, though honored with
pre-eminent veneration by the faithful, is nevertheless a creature. She is
worshipped as the greatest of the saints and the Queen of Angels, but she
is not adored.
Online book - and saints, no matter how exalted. They deserve to be honored because of
their nearness to God. Even the Blessed Virgin, though honored with
pre-eminent veneration by the faithful, is nevertheless a creature. She is
worshipped as the greatest of the saints and the Queen of Angels, but she
is not adored.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3K...ice%22&f=false
Prayer to St. Francis
– St. Francis
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.
I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen.
It is not at all clear that worship and serving are not involved here.... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.
I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
========================================
Book: The Catholic Catechism
By John Hardon
THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
The Catholic Church carefully distinguishes the worship of adoration given
to God and the worship of veneration offered to the angels and saints.
And in that same section This is completely different from the veneration offered to the angelsBy John Hardon
THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
The Catholic Church carefully distinguishes the worship of adoration given
to God and the worship of veneration offered to the angels and saints.
and saints, no matter how exalted. They deserve to be honored because of
their nearness to God. Even the Blessed Virgin, though honored with
pre-eminent veneration by the faithful, is nevertheless a creature. She is
worshipped as the greatest of the saints and the Queen of Angels, but she
is not adored.
Sorry to butt in but I am curious as to how you would comment on Mary being the "Queen of the Angels."
God bless.
Sorry to butt in but I am curious as to how you would comment on Mary being the "Queen of the Angels."
Also...
...I would be curious as to how you define "worship" of saints.
God bless.
Darrell C, this post is rather long but if you really would read it in it's entirety you will see what is the Catholic way of praying to Mary and the other saints in heaven.
“Pray” for non-Catholics is synonymous with worship. But, not all prayer is worship. There are four types of prayer: 1) Worship 2) Thanksgiving 3) Petition and 4) Intercession. The original meaning and use of the word “Pray” is to “petition” or “ask.” The practice of petitioning Saints or Mary dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—It has only been with the advent of Protestantism (500 years old or less) that anyone has questioned the use of this word.
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
So, we do pray to saints, but not to worship them. We pray to ask for their prayers. They pray with us and for us, just as others here on earth can pray with us and for us. Have you ever asked a friend or a family member to pray for you? It is the same thing.
Prayer is simply a request. Worship is something altogether different. We do pray to them, but some prayer is making a request. We make requests of the saints and of Mary for their intercession, which the Bible says is pleasing to God. Paul says that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
A request can only be answered by God. We request God’s help, his mercy, and his divine intervention. Nevertheless, we do ask the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary and others in heaven to petition our prayer to God for us. All with the same goal, that God will help, have mercy and divinely intervene.
“Pray” for non-Catholics is synonymous with worship. But, not all prayer is worship. There are four types of prayer: 1) Worship 2) Thanksgiving 3) Petition and 4) Intercession. The original meaning and use of the word “Pray” is to “petition” or “ask.” The practice of petitioning Saints or Mary dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—It has only been with the advent of Protestantism (500 years old or less) that anyone has questioned the use of this word.
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
So, we do pray to saints, but not to worship them. We pray to ask for their prayers. They pray with us and for us, just as others here on earth can pray with us and for us. Have you ever asked a friend or a family member to pray for you? It is the same thing.
Prayer is simply a request. Worship is something altogether different. We do pray to them, but some prayer is making a request. We make requests of the saints and of Mary for their intercession, which the Bible says is pleasing to God. Paul says that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
A request can only be answered by God. We request God’s help, his mercy, and his divine intervention. Nevertheless, we do ask the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary and others in heaven to petition our prayer to God for us. All with the same goal, that God will help, have mercy and divinely intervene.
When Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in 1 Kings 2:20, she says: "I pray thee, say me not nay." There is no question here of whether Bathsheba was worshipping her son! She was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was a dead guy! And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the Redemption. There is no contradiction here as long as one makes the distinction that is very clear in Scripture: there is an essential difference between going to "mediums" or "wizards" to conjure up the spirits of the dead and communicating—as Jesus did—with those we either hope (if they have not been canonized) or believe (if they have been canonized) died in friendship with God.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was a dead guy! And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the Redemption. There is no contradiction here as long as one makes the distinction that is very clear in Scripture: there is an essential difference between going to "mediums" or "wizards" to conjure up the spirits of the dead and communicating—as Jesus did—with those we either hope (if they have not been canonized) or believe (if they have been canonized) died in friendship with God.
PreachTony
Active Member
Jesus Himself stated in Matthew 6:9 "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven..." He gives us immediate instruction that, when we pray, we should pray directly to God. No where in any gospel, epistle, or letter are we instructed to lift up prayers to the saints, who will then deliver them to God. We don't need some Heavenly UPS service. The veil of the Temple was torn asunder so we could enter the Holy of Holies ourselves. We have been given the ability to boldly go before the Throne of Grace. No praying to the saints. We can speak directly to God our Father.
"Canonization?" I don't need a self-important body in some far-away country to tell me if a person was a saint of God. I've known many, many people who I will gladly tell you were among the saints of God. They didn't perform miracles. They didn't hold some high office. They were just good people, seeking to learn and delve deeper into the mysteries of God. They were teachers, preachers, and deacons. Lay-members. They were saints of God. No robed elder in Rome can tell me otherwise.
Preach Tony,it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Tony, what Lakeside has said regarding prayer to saints reminds of the verse when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who like the Catholics adore the traditions of men " But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9).
And this would apply as well, " 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind," (Colossians 2:18)
Good point brother Toney. Paul repeatedly mentions all the believers he is writing to in his epistles as "saints"
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 1:7) The words "to be" were added by the translators of the King James and thus are not in the original.
"But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints" (Romans 15:25)
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" Again the words "to be" were added by the translators of the King James and thus are not in the original.
Christ's righteousness imputed to us makes each believer to have the righteousness of Christ and thus a saint.
"But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints" (Romans 15:25)
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" Again the words "to be" were added by the translators of the King James and thus are not in the original.
"Called to be saints", means you must prove yourself in this life, then comes the Judgment and only then, if you are accepted into heaven, are you a 'SAINT ", not until.
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" Again the words "to be" were added by the translators of the King James and thus are not in the original.
"Called to be saints", means you must prove yourself in this life, then comes the Judgment and only then, if you are accepted into heaven, are you a 'SAINT ", not until.
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BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Lakeside I pity you, why do you think you need the intercession of believers in heaven, when scripture plainly declares Christ directly intercedes for us to the Father. Please read the following scriptures, "he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:13),
"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)
"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."(Romans 8:27)
"Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." (Romans 8:34)
Wherefore he is able also to [I]save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them[/I] (Hebrews 7:25)
To say more intercession is needed from believers in heaven is blasphemous as it asserts Christ doing it is not sufficient!
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PreachTony
Active Member
I take it you have scriptural evidence that, in order to be a saint, a person must:
a. be called to be a Saint
b. prove themselves through works in life
c. die and face the Judgment
d. be accepted into Heaven
Otherwise, you have to say that Paul was writing to dead people. Did Paul write to dead people?
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Yes Lakeside agree the words "to be" were added by the translators and do not appear in the original Greek, thus Paul is actually calling them saints, it should read, "called saints" by your own admission. They are made saints based upon Christ's atoning work.