That would be chiliast. What the Church believed before Catholic Doctrine became popular and the Bible, well, not so popular among her adherents.
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How Many Resurrections In Revelation? Two
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
That would be chiliast. What the Church believed before Catholic Doctrine became popular and the Bible, well, not so popular among her adherents.
I am still trying to understand you calling everybody who holds a dispensational view as Darbites since we have shown that even Paul taught Pre-Trib Rapture. The early church Fathers were looking for His Pre-Trib return.
I don't actually call a pre-trib view dispensational, but Biblical. There is a range among dispensational camps we might not agree with. Progressive Dispensationals, largely post trib, believe Michael is a reference to Christ. Certain dispensational believe Israel and the church are separate groups in the Eternal State, rather than One Fold with One Shepherd.
Think of it like this: is the Trinity a Catholic, or Biblical doctrine?
So do you mind me asking how you voted?
God bless.
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Technically speaking there is only one resurrection mentioned in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ,
The word "resurrection" (Grk. anastasis) is used twice in the Revelation and both times it refers to the "first resurrection".
Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Notice the use of the definite article the used of the "first resurrection" in both cases.
If one wants to argue that in verse 7 "the thousand years" does not exist then can we (to be consistent) state that "the first resurrection" therefore does not exist for the sake of exegetical consistency? If not, why not?
But if we do accept "the first resurrection" as a reality then this statement implies that there must be subsequent resurrections.
But nowhere else in the Book of Revelation do we see the word "resurrection" again either in English or koine Greek.
Implied? maybe, but Paul was taken to heaven without a "resurrection".
So my answer to the question is - we don't know how many resurrections there are in the Book of Revelation.
We know there is at least one - the "first" resurrection and that's all we can say IMO.
HankD
The word "resurrection" (Grk. anastasis) is used twice in the Revelation and both times it refers to the "first resurrection".
Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Notice the use of the definite article the used of the "first resurrection" in both cases.
If one wants to argue that in verse 7 "the thousand years" does not exist then can we (to be consistent) state that "the first resurrection" therefore does not exist for the sake of exegetical consistency? If not, why not?
But if we do accept "the first resurrection" as a reality then this statement implies that there must be subsequent resurrections.
But nowhere else in the Book of Revelation do we see the word "resurrection" again either in English or koine Greek.
Implied? maybe, but Paul was taken to heaven without a "resurrection".
So my answer to the question is - we don't know how many resurrections there are in the Book of Revelation.
We know there is at least one - the "first" resurrection and that's all we can say IMO.
HankD
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Excellent post. My tablet's getting ready to die so I'll make a short response and hope I can finish before either it dies or I fall asleep, lol...getting late.
First I would mention we see a resurrection here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11:7-11&version=KJV
...and here...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20:11-13&version=KJV
This latter is spoken of here...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20:5&version=KJV
And so I would ask, are these not resurrections? They are dead and live again.
And I'll stop there and await your response.
God bless.
I Voted 4 in the poll
Guessing from what you said in another post you include the Rapture of the Church?
CH.4, maybe?
God bless.
Yes the voice as a trumpet and the call to come up hither plus the 24 elders enthroned with their crowns obviously they have faced the Judgment seat of Christ and received Gold, Silver and Precious stones and others wood hay and straw.
Well, the last citation you gave is the one I mentioned (the first resurrection) from Revelation 20 verses 5 and 6.
But as for the "resurrection" which produces an eternal body prepared for the New Jerusalem perhaps is not the same as just coming back to life in the flesh or a body which will endure eternal separation from God.
I could be wrong,and I suspect I am.
My purpose was to be purely technical as to the use of the word "resurrection" (Grk. anastasis) in the Book of Revelation.
Also, I don't think we can dismiss the reality of "the thousand years" without also dismissing the reality of "the first resurrection" of Revelation 20:5-7 since they are in explicitly bound together in the meaning of the passage.
HankD
Consider that both Saint and sinner will be raised in bodies suitable to exist for eternity. The difference between the two is the saint is united with God and the sinner is still separated as he was when he died.
That is the difference and it does not preclude the sinner from a similar resurrection body, just unity with God. They are therefore lacking the Spirit of God. That would be similar to all men being born with an equality of body and spirit, the difference occurring in the new birth, at which time we receive the Spirit of God. That difference is maintained throughout eternity.
And I appreciate the technical approach, lol, it was an excellent response.
But could we deny that the Two Witnesses are resurrected in glorified form seeing they are caught up to Heaven?
And I agree about discounting the thousand years. There is no indication it is figurative and the accompanying detail makes it a certainty, the resurrection of the dead probably the most distinct point.
God bless.
Yes that is true. But does being caught up to heaven prove the eternal resurrection of the two? Yes, perhaps in the case of the two witnesses it does.
But Paul was also "caught up" to heaven (the third heaven at that).
Yet he lived on in the flesh afterward to talk about it.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.
HankD
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Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, so I take that to mean they do not enter Heaven in their physical bodies. We know when one is born again they are translated into the Kingdom of Christ, so we know that is not in view. We know living, physical born again believers enter the Millennial Kingdom from Revelation 20, Matthew 24, and Ezekiel 39, so that can't be in view either.
Paul's ascension to the Third Heaven can be seen as similar to John's catching up where we know John had not been glorified by both internal evidence (he went on to pen Revelation) as well as external tradition which has John leaving Patmos.
So I think we can clarify a rapture event from God revealing things to men in their spirit, which Paul was unsure of. Additionally, Paul neither died physically and seeing he still awaited glorification we can be dogmatic his experience was not resurrection or rapture.
But John is clear the Two Witnesses die, their bodies lay in the street as party favors for 3 1\2 days, are resurrected and then caught up to Heaven, which is not possible in unredeemed flesh.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+15:49-51&version=KJV
God bless.
We don't know when Paul was caught up to the third heaven, not that it matters but Lazarus is another example. Jesus called him back from heaven??
Also Enoch and Elijah.
I suppose they can be consigned to Abraham's bosom which we then would have to say is different than heaven (the abode of God).
It would appear that the two witnesses had the resurrection of the just in eternal bodies but I'm still not 100% sure. However the word "resurrection" Is not used of them to be totally technical.
Even if they were technically resurrected then I would say they were resurrected in the meaning of the verses of Revelation 20:5-6 and were part of that resurrection.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God may not preclude a visit such as Paul had. He did not at that time "inherit" the kingdom of God but was taken up for a visit to the 3rd heaven.
Otherwise, OK then there are two resurrections in the Book of Revelation.
BTW, the word "first" (Grk. protos) does not necessarily mean first in a series within the timeline but could mean first in the sense of priority and importance.
So RE: those saints "resurrected (or taken to heaven)" pre-pentecost (Enoch, Elijah, Lazarus) resurrections recorded in the Bible take second place to the final resurrection of the last day.
In any event the word "first" (in whatever meaning) indicates a second, third, who knows how many, etc...
Anyway, I liked your post, it made me think, and I appreciate your responses.
Thanks brother.
HankD
I will address this when I am able to get back to my computer, this is too important not to present the relevant Scripture with the response, so bear with me a bit. This tablet is bittersweet. Glad I can be on but not to be able to give a decent presentation has been killing me, lol.
The short answer/s would be...
Many think Paul died during one of his persecutions and it was then he was caught up to Heaven. This is post Pentecost so the Old Testament restriction from coming into God's presence in His eternal glory had been abolished by Christ.
Based on the same principle I do not view Enoch and Elijah to have gone to Heaven, but that Enoch died and was translated to Paradise ("...that he should not see death meaning he was spared the actual experience, not that he was raptured), and Elijah is simply caught up into the heavens, not Heaven itself.
Hebrews as well as Christ Himself seem to make it clear only the Son, in His incarnation, had seen God, and Christ being the first to be glorified would be an erroneous statement if in fact either of these men had gone to Heaven, as they would have had to have their sin atoned for and their bodies made suitable for the spiritual realm.
But we do see the spirits of men going into Sheol/Hades, as Christ affirms in Luke 16.
And I agree totally protos does not demand sequence but implies a "second," to which we look at the only two Resurrections taught in Scripture:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5:28-30&version=KJV
That is why the resurrection that follows the Millennial Kingdom is second. Just my opinion but I think it likely this will involve only the lost as they are designated as dead, a descriptor that cannot in sany way be applied to the regenerate (required before physical death) at that point as the current creation has passed out of existence.
When we look at Biblical use of protos we wouldnt impose a demand for a "second" when it describes priests, estates, seats, or even when used to describe the "first" commandment:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...om/passage/?search=John+5:28-30&version=KJVJV
...where the context makes it clear it stands alone.
We know the Covenant of Law is not the "first" Covenant, but as in Revelation 20 , in the context of the subject matter, for Israel (the ones exhorted to embrace the New Covenant) it is the highest in rank. Doesn't mean the Abrahamic Covenant is lesser, but we see protos distinguishing two Covenants only.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Heb&c=8&t=KJV&p=0#s=t_conc_1141013
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Heb&c=8&t=KJV&p=0#s=t_conc_1141013
In Revelation 20 the meaning is further defined in that it is the resurrection of Life contrasted with the rest of the dead who are raised unto damnation one thousand years later.
And have to get on the road so I'll stop there.
God bless.
What Paul told the believers in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 he also said to the believers in Rome,
Romans 5:8-10, 8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Notice "we shall be saved from wrath through Christ" then, "being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Not one place do see the Church or churches mentioned after Revelation 3 until Revelation 21 verse 2. There the church is mentioned as the Bride.
Jesus said to the church at Philadelphia, Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Paul says we are saved from the wrath of God, God's wrath coming upon the earth is seen Revelation 6:17. The call to come up hither goes out with the voice like a trumpet and John is carried into heaven where he sees twenty four elders seated and crowned which would fulfill multiple passages where Paul taught of the rewarding of Believers.
1 Corinthians 3:12-14,
12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."
Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Appears in Revelation 4 the twenty four elders have faced the judgment seat and have their reward, their crowns.
thus this is where the resurrection of the dead and living church age believers are caught up.
1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Revelation 4:1-2, 1"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
a beautiful picture of the calling home of the Church here in Revelation 4 to fulfill what Paul said would happen. This is a resurrection and a Translation of both the living and dead Saints of the church.
Romans 5:8-10, 8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Notice "we shall be saved from wrath through Christ" then, "being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Not one place do see the Church or churches mentioned after Revelation 3 until Revelation 21 verse 2. There the church is mentioned as the Bride.
Jesus said to the church at Philadelphia, Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Paul says we are saved from the wrath of God, God's wrath coming upon the earth is seen Revelation 6:17. The call to come up hither goes out with the voice like a trumpet and John is carried into heaven where he sees twenty four elders seated and crowned which would fulfill multiple passages where Paul taught of the rewarding of Believers.
1 Corinthians 3:12-14,
12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."
Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Appears in Revelation 4 the twenty four elders have faced the judgment seat and have their reward, their crowns.
thus this is where the resurrection of the dead and living church age believers are caught up.
1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Revelation 4:1-2, 1"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
a beautiful picture of the calling home of the Church here in Revelation 4 to fulfill what Paul said would happen. This is a resurrection and a Translation of both the living and dead Saints of the church.
Thanks for the response Darrell.
I have wondered - at the end of the thousand years will we be further changed when we go into eternity in the New Jerusalem?
HankD
What I wonder is when you read that the tree of life is there and the leaves are for the healing of the nations. Will the folks physically alive in the millennial stay physically alive and eat of the tree of life as God intended that Adam and Eve would have done.
Those raptured will be glorified at that time, with no further need of change.
Just my opinion, speculation, really, that glorified saints of this Age will minister, possibly, as Angels do now. I don't believe we will dwell here, but that possibly we will come and go, again, like Angels do now.
When the Lord spoke about this Kingdom He said...
Matthew 8:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
...which indicates that these fellows will be resurrected for that Kingdom. I believe the point the Lord is making is again that heritage is not the qualifier for entrance, as well as indicating Gentile Inclusion. While this would certainly have application to the Eternal State, I think it speaks about the Millennial Kingdom, as I see many of His teachings on the Kingdom do. Again, there is an application for both, but first things first.
In the Kingdom, those raptured are glorified. Then, at the End of the Tribulation, those who are martyred in that time are glorified (and this is speculated based on the fact they are said to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years, it is possible they are only physically resurrected and glorified just prior to the Great White Throne). During the Millennial Kingdom, either those who die (believers) are either instantaneously glorified or their spirits await in Heaven for the final resurrection. I lean heavily to the latter because I see the Kingdom as being similar to our current conditions, physically speaking. People will still need to be born again (those born to Tribulation survivors), and the Gospel will still be preached. While long life will be the norm, there will still be death.
What keeps me from being dogmatic is a lack of revelation in regards to them, and the fact that those raised in the final resurrection are called dead. I may be overthinking that. But, at this time the current heavens and earth will have passed away so it would require that they be made suitable (everyone) when that comes to pass.
Now I have my computer back but no time. Have to get to work and catch up for all that sitting around I did this week, lol.
God bless.
Thanks Darrell. In the prophetic realm there are as many interpretations as there are believers. You and I are close in our views.
God is not the author of confusion but I think the differences of opinion among believers concerning eschatology is not confusion per se but a reminder from God that we need Him for wisdom and we need to be kind to one another when it comes to prophetic discernment.
HankD
God is not the author of confusion but I think the differences of opinion among believers concerning eschatology is not confusion per se but a reminder from God that we need Him for wisdom and we need to be kind to one another when it comes to prophetic discernment.
HankD